In this episode of the Window Light podcast, I interviewed Kent Lasnoski, the president of San Damiano College for the Trades, a Catholic higher education institution opening its doors in the fall of 2025 that will offer students a liberal arts education combined with training in the trades. Lasnoski was previously a professor of moral theology at Quincy University in Illinois and Wyoming Catholic College. We talked about the mission of the college, its curriculum, and how a professor of moral theology came to be the president of a college, among other things.
Interview date: October 25, 2024
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Transcript
MATTHEW SHADLE: Hello. I'm with Kent Lasnoski, the President of San Damiano College for the Trades, who was formerly a professor of moral theology, most recently at Wyoming Catholic College and earlier at Quincy University in Illinois. He's the author of Thirty Days with the Married Saints, a devotional and self-guided retreat for married couples. And we're here to talk mostly about San Damiano College, a new and kind of exciting enterprise Kent is involved with. So, welcome, Kent.
KENT LASNOSKI: Yeah, great to be with you. It's great to have this conversation, Matthew.
SHADLE: So, let's jump right in. So, I kind of went through your career background. So, like I mentioned, you spent several years as a professor of moral theology, but now you're taking on this position as a college president at San Damiano. So, what . . . Tell us about the path that led you from one to the other. How did you end up involved in this?
LASNOSKI: Yeah. So, I mean, as you know, being in moral theology yourself, as you study moral theology, things sort of enter onto your heart and they start compelling you, right? They start, I guess, commanding your conscience to do something, right? And so, initially for me, you know, that was in the marriage and family space, right. And so, you know, my initial moral theology research was in marriage prep. And so, my wife and I, we ended up doing a bunch of marriage prep programs around the idea of working with mentor couples and developing long-term marriage preparation programs for dioceses and for churches.
And so that was my initial move. But as we started having a family, my interest in moral theology started expanding out of simply just preparing for marriage into things like, well, How do you actually raise kids for Christ and His Church? Right? How do you do that? And part of that involves education. So, I was learning a lot about homeschooling. I was learning about, you know, authentic Catholic education of young children. All the while I was also, you know, teaching at a university, at a Catholic university. And so, I was seeing the problems, foibles and faults, and crises in Catholic higher education at the same time I'm learning about, well, what does it mean to educate my own little kids. And so, as I'm studying this, I'm thinking, “Well, how ought we to be educating people? How ought we to be educating them in the faith and in the tradition of the Catholic Church?” So, it kind of entered onto my radar of Catholic moral theology what to do about the crisis of higher ed and what to do about the crisis of figuring out how to raise and educate my own kids.
So, you know, I discovered John Senior, the integrated humanities program that he founded, and a couple colleges that were trying to do, sort of . . . they were his sort of grandchildren intellectually and spiritually, like, for example, Wyoming Catholic College was one such school. So, I ended up getting a job there. And I just started diving into the Great Books tradition and learning about the great books myself, reading them, teaching them, and seeing one institution trying to solve the problems that I had been seeing in Catholic higher education that I had wanted to solve. So yeah, it's basically that, you know, my own personal life took a turn toward the renewal of Catholic higher education, and so my professional life took a similar turn, I guess.
SHADLE: So, you know there are, you know, different experiments in higher education, both on the Catholic side, but even, you know, on the public side or the private side, just people trying different things to address some of the problems that I'm sure we'll talk about later. But that was interesting how you brought up that, you know, among Catholics, there's also this tradition of experimenting, of different ways of educating the equivalent of K-12 children, too. So, why not bring some of that creativity to higher ed, too? So, I just got to ask: So, you were a professor, did you dabble in any kind of administrative roles during that time that maybe gave you some tools?
LASNOSKI: Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, when I was at Quincy University, I already wanted to found a school, and I had started writing up the plan to do it. But, you know, I think God saved me from trying to do that at that time and instead gave me the job at Wyoming Catholic where I was thrust into a whole host of administrative duties, starting out at admissions committee and then getting up into the academic council, eventually being the faculty board member . . .
SHADLE: Oh, nice.
LASNOSKI: . . . and being an assistant dean for students running the accreditation site visit along with everyone else at the college, being the main editor and author of that accreditation argument that you have to write, of course. So, taking on a lot of responsibilities in the administrative role, learning a lot of things that have been preparing me precisely for what's happening here, where, you know, Bishop Paprocki gave me a call and said, “Hey, I'm discerning this new experiment here in Springfield, you want to come and check it out with me?” And so, yeah. So, I came over and we spent about six months doing feasibility work, and praying, and thinking about what exactly God was calling us to do in Springfield. And then we launched the San Damiano College for the Trades.
SHADLE: If you don't mind me asking, what was the, you know, what was the basis of your relationship with Bishop Paprocki there?
LASNOSKI: Sure. Well, he was the bishop installed recently before I started teaching at Quincy University. So, when I came and I asked for my mandatum, I also just said, “Hey, is there anything I can ever do for you in terms of research, or committees, or whatever?”
SHADLE: He wrote this in his little notebook and years later he gave you a call.
LASNOSKI: Yeah, well, it started off with some smaller things. So, I did a research . . . I did some research on alkaline hydrolysis, which is like body melting as a means of disposing human bodies, and whether or not the bishop's office should fight against legislation that would legalize body dissolving as a means of bodily disposition in the state. I was also on an end of life issues committee working on some publications for him. And so, in the medical ethics space, I did some work for the bishop, and we got to be friendly in that sense. So that friendly acquaintance stayed in place even while I was in Wyoming. And I actually got to reach out to him because of a canon law question. And then that's when he got in touch with me about the college.
SHADLE: So, we've been talking about San Damiano College, but we haven't really talked about what is unique about its mission. So, let's go ahead and get into that. So, for one thing, the plan for the college is that it will offer associate’s degrees in the liberal arts as well as non-degree . . . it will have non-degree trades programs, but in both cases the students are going to be asked while they're students, they're going to be involved in a trade or in some kind of technical instruction. So, you know, we'll talk about this in a little bit, but . . . so, in some ways like a community college or a trade school. So, why do you think a college with that focus is needed?
LASNOSKI: Oh man, there's so many reasons, you know, and I just . . . Let's start with the practical one from the economic side, right. It's just clear that people are leaving the trades faster than they're joining them. And so, there's a sense in which, from an economic standpoint, there need to be more ways of getting people into the trades. That's really not the main reason I think Catholic higher education needs this. It's simply a kind of economic reason. I think one of the main reasons that comes to my mind whenever I'm thinking about why I want to do this has to do with, “How do you get people to not be idiots?” And I use that word intentionally, right, you know, in the Greek sense of private or self-contained. You think of “idiosyncratic”, right? Someone who's not engaged in something beyond themselves. So, what I mean by that is the way to get someone to be beyond their own headspace, beyond the world where they get to say who they are and what they are, and be radically their own self-creator, you have to put them in touch with something real, right, you have to put them in touch with something that they didn't make that stands apart, outside from them, that's going to challenge them and push them and make them actually have to encounter. So, Wyoming Catholic College did that by putting people in the great outdoors, right. You put someone up against a mountain. Well, you know, they're going to have to do something about it. You put someone up against the cold and the weather, they’ve got to figure out how to survive. In the same way you can encounter something outside yourself by just. . . even by dealing with human artifacts.
SHADLE: Hmm.
LASNOSKI: So, if you go into the shop and you're looking at this furnace that doesn't work, you can't just, like . . . It's not just an abstraction that exists in your head. It really is that furnace right there, which for some reason or other doesn't work, and you have to figure out on its own terms why it doesn't work and what the solution is to it. So, you have to . . . it kind of demands something of you, if that makes sense.
SHADLE: Yeah. So, it sounds like it's, you know . . . like you said, you're kind of trying to think beyond just the economic to involve people in both a sense of purpose, but also it just sounds like grounding them in something practical and concrete, but that . . . you didn't use this term, but I don't think you would object . . . developing virtues as well as practical skills through learning something concrete and beneficial.
LASNOSKI: Yeah, totally. I mean, again, it's about getting in touch with the tangible world and recovering what John Senior calls a poetic mode of education, right? You have to retrain people to learn immediately and directly the truths that are intuitively available around them. You have to stock their memory with beautiful and good things so that when it comes time for them to think, they have something to think with. You have to teach them that there is a world outside themselves that they didn't make or create and that disciplines them and makes a demand of them. The truth, right? The truth makes a demand on us. We don't get to tell the truth what to do. The truth sort of comes in and invades our lives and our minds and our hearts and calls us up to something better. So, there's a way in which just getting people back in touch with the tangible goods is a groundwork, ultimately, for love and for training in virtue, right? That's the direction we're aiming. But we have to start with forcing people to wake up to the fact that they need that training.
SHADLE: I don't think the economic side . . . I don't think we should discount that either, because I heard . . . I was just listening the other day, and I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but it was that, you know, so many college graduates, when they leave a four-year program, there's just this mismatch between the number of graduates and the number of jobs that are available that require a four-year degree. And so, you briefly mentioned before that there is this gap of, you know, occupations that require a certain amount of training, that there's a need for those, but that there's not enough people going into those. And so, this . . . the college is, you know, finding a niche in Catholic higher education to help fill that gap that’s going to find people meaningful employment, that they could support a family, but without going the four-year degree route.
LASNOSKI: Yeah, And that's . . . And again, yes, the economic impetus for the school is there, and it's absolutely going to serve a huge need for a lot of businesses, and it's going to do a lot of good for people who can get jobs and support themselves and their families. But again, people have been training workers for a century, right. We've been training people to be cogs in wheels and there's really, still to this day, there really isn't a shortage of technical training out there. There's plenty of community colleges. There's plenty of technical institutes you can go to and learn how to weld, and that's great. But what they aren't doing . . . And so they're preparing people in a certain way to be cogs in a wheel, right. The thing that people need is not just a job, but they need to know, why bother living and why bother working at all? What's work good for? Is it just for my daily bread or can it be more dignified than that? Where does the meaning of work come from? And so, we're trying to teach that, we're trying to teach students how to integrate that work into a well-lived life, right. A life of the mind, a life of the spirit, a life of the heart.
SHADLE: Well, that's a good lead in. So, one of the things that does . . . Obviously the, by far the largest thing that distinguishes San Damiano from other colleges offering technical programs is its Catholic identity and Catholic mission, and it's woven into the college's plan of study. But can you tell us how the Catholic mission is woven into what the college is going to offer students?
LASNOSKI: Mm hmm. Yeah. So, we're trying to teach people how to form the habits of living a life ordered toward the Kingdom. And so, it's not just, “Hey, to be a good Catholic man, you need to take a theology course,” right? It's more like, “To be a person who's happy, you need to have intimacy with God.” And so how do we give people that opportunity? Well, we have a morning Mass every day that they can go to. And then they grab their breakfast, they pack a lunch. And then if it's a class day, right, they're going to have a humanities class or a theology class or both, and then they'll go out to the shop. If it's a working day, they'll go out to their job site, and when they get back in either case, after class or after their job site, we have a community meal where there's going to be more prayer and conversation about the day. And then after that, they'll have the opportunity to do whatever it is they like until we have adoration at 7:30, and that's not mandatory also, but it's there every night at 7:30. And then at 8:30, students will be joining the Norbertine religious order for Compline, which is about a fifteen minute piece of the Liturgy of the Hours, after which they again can do whatever it is they like. So, we're building that sort of rhythm of prayer and mindfulness into the daily life of the student. Beyond that, we have an annual retreat, monthly spiritual direction, and an annual pilgrimage that is a . . . that is also a work of mercy, too.
SHADLE: So, I don't mean this at all as a criticism, but it almost seems monastic, right?
LASNOSKI: Yeah.
SHADLE: And so, it's like ora et labora, right? And so is this . . . Are you envisioning this as a residential college. Are they going to be living there?
LASNOSKI: It is residential, yes.
SHADLE: Okay.
LASNOSKI: We have dorms, an entire floor of dorms, doubles in the ground floor of this wonderful, amazing campus we have.
SHADLE: Since it came up, tell us about the campus. You know, how did you find it?
LASNOSKI: Sure. So again, by the providence of God, the Hospital Sisters of Saint Francis, in their prudence, with this 75 acres of beautiful, pristine, forested and grass land have also a conference center and mother house with shops all together here on the 75 acres. They don't have enough people to use it all anymore.
SHADLE: :Mm hmm.
LASNOSKI: And so, as they move into a smaller section of this campus, the rest of it has opened up for both the Corpus Christi Priory of the Norbertines and now the San Damiano College for the Trades, which is moving in to use some of it, as well. So basically, yeah, out of some good planning by them, they were able to put it into a trust, and Bishop Paprocki has been directed to operate that trust for the good of the Sisters and the good of the Catholic Church. And so he's invited the Norbertines and us to use it with him.
SHADLE: That's really exciting that this place was there and, just like you said, almost providentially waiting to be used for something. So, I'm going a bit off script, but so, I know you've probably been traveling around meeting with people and everything. So, do you have a sense, like, are there potential students? You know, maybe they don't realize it or not, but looking for something like this, and are they going to . . . Do you think students are primarily going to come from Illinois and just the Midwest region, or do you think you're going to pull students from all over the country? You know? So, what are you thinking in terms of . . . are the students there to make this work and where are they going to come from?
LASNOSKI: Mm hmm. Well, the short answer is I have . . . There are lots of students that want this and are very interested. I have about 70 people who have contacted me asking about applications. I've had a lot of students come visit with their parents already, and that's without having done any actual recruiting. I haven't done any college, any high school visits. I'm really not legally allowed to do formal recruiting until we get state approval to operate.
SHADLE: Okay.
LASNOSKI: So, with just having put some of these newspaper articles out, doing podcasts like this with you, people are finding out and they're coming to the college asking about admissions. So, most of them are from Illinois. And that's what we expect, right? But to be sure, there's plenty of folks from around the rest of the country, as well. I mean, I just had a prospect from Virginia who was talking about flying out here and taking a look at the campus, and Texas and California, as well. So, it's again, it's mostly Illinois and regional, but there's still national interest, as well.
SHADLE: Yeah. So, I just think, you know, personally I think on paper, I think there's a lot that people might be attracted to, like they might feel, “Well, you know, four-year college, that's not for me,” or “I'm not sure I want to do that. But I do want to learn a trade, but, you know, I want it at a Catholic institution.” So, I think on paper that could be very attractive, but it's just so unique that they might be like, “I don't know, that seems kind of scary or intimidating,” you know. But I'm glad that you're already getting a lot of interest. So . . . Because like I said, I think it's bringing together a lot of things that people are wanting.
So, another distinctive feature of the college is that it's being advertised as a college for men, and so, as you know, that's cutting against the trend in Catholic higher education over the past several decades, where they have moved from single-sex institutions to coed. So, what's the rationale for limiting enrollment to men?
LASNOSKI: Sure. I mean, first, let me just say I celebrate all of those moves to make higher education more accessible for women. And that's actually part of the reason that I'm about to offer, is that . . . Why for men? Well, it turns out that women have been taking advantage of all of the great opportunities that have become available for them, and doing really well, succeeding in a way that everyone is very happy about, and so this is wonderful news. But if you look at the statistics, you see that unfortunately somehow or other men are being left behind. So, there was just a great article in the Wall Street Journal recently about this. And you know, for every four men in college, there are six women in college, right? And so, women not only are attending more, but they're graduating more. Women are also entering the workforce more quickly than men are. And so, it's an interesting position right now. So, something like 29 percent of men in their 20s are living at home, and it's . . . I think it's about 19 percent for women. So, it's really interesting to see the disparity in sort of success at launching, right. Women are taking . . . doing a good job taking advantage of the opportunities that are being offered and they're launching out more successfully than men are. So. I don't think it's unjust in that sense to say, well, how can we set the table more appealingly for men and give them a shot at success in a way that, for some reason, hasn't been working in the last 10 to 15 years. Does that make sense?
SHADLE: Yeah.
LASNOSKI: That's . . . I think that's a big reason. The second reason is really just logistical. You know, we want to launch this thing well, we want to launch it right. And our dorm situation is such that it would be . . . It would be actually very complicated for us to try to do a coed dorm immediately right away.
SHADLE: Sure.
LASNOSKI: And I don't think we ever really want a coed dorm. We would . . . If we were going to do women, and we're not opposed to opening the college to women down the road, when and if that makes sense. It would just have to be . . . the dorm situation would have to be figured out so that there would be enough separation between those dorms so that we don't have the sort of logistical problems that you might find.
SHADLE: And you know, like I said in the question, in the Catholic Church, we have this tradition of separate-sex education, right.
LASNOSKI: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: And so, it's not like you're trying something kind of new or weird or anything, like this is very traditional, right. But you . . . I think that's important to point out, there are also some practical considerations of just, you know, launching this college and getting it started with, you know, an eye towards how you could expand it later.
LASNOSKI: Yep.
SHADLE: Alright. So, this has kind of come up already, but . . . So, one of the aspects of the college’s program of study is that students are going to be working in a trade as they take their classes, and so it has some similarities with, you know, existing work study colleges. So, I think of College of the Ozarks in Missouri, which was close to where I grew up. It's like the students helped pay their tuition by working.
LASNOSKI: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: And there's one . . . And there's a well-known one in Kentucky, as well. So, you're kind of taking that but, you know, bringing these other pieces, as well. So, I imagine that's . . . So, one disadvantage you have here is, like a traditional community college is a public institution and partially gets funding from the government, so federal and state. But you don't have that, and so one concern I had is how do you keep it affordable for students? So, it sounds like this is . . . A big piece of that is the trades, working in the trades while they’re students. So, can you elaborate on that?
LASNOSKI: Sure. So, I think let's just start with a philosophical piece of this for a minute. You know, if you . . . I see, I've seen billboards for colleges that say, “This is our promise: Totally free education all four years. Our promise to you.”
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
LASNOSKI: Right. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing. They're going to promise a totally free education for all four years. And I'm thinking to myself, what is the student . . . What is the value of that education? I hate to sort of commoditize everything, right? Not that we should commodify, commoditize everything, but the fact of the matter is, if I have zero skin in the game, and I see it as like, “Yeah, this is just the thing I'm doing for free, cause, you know, Uncle Sam likes me,” there's a way in which you just don't appreciate it as much. You don't have as much investment. Surely you don't have as much investment in it. It's a kind of thing that contributes to, again, I think, part of our failure to launch situation where we find ourselves where people just, they can't put themselves and make themselves grow up, because even in college, hey, it's free and it should be free, right? I'm entitled to that, right. So, it kind of . . . It kind of continues the sort of entitlement thing. Now there are plenty of people who absolutely need that opportunity because otherwise there's no way they'd get higher education. And I’m . . . So, I'm not saying we should do away with those kind of promises entirely. But what we don't want to do is create a situation that further pushes on people a sort of entitlement way of thinking. So, with that philosophical peace of mind, I think it's really important that the students are paying their way through this school, right? This is not a gift. This is something they're earning for themselves. And they're working their way through this by being on the job.
Now, how do you make that affordable? You do it by skimming down on administrative bloat, right? You do it by working against the sort of country club style of higher education living that many people are used to, right? We are not going to have, for example, an all you can eat, crazy buffet for all meals, and we're not going to have that kind of setup with a fancy gym, you know, and pool, and everything like that. So, cutting costs that way, where you can, teaching people temperance. But at the same time, that's really not enough.
SHADLE: Right, right, right.
LASNOSKI: What we need to do is get industry partners, and those industry partners are going to see the value culturally and economically of sponsoring students through this program and of contributing to tuition reduction funds that make the education more affordable. So ultimately, that combination of, you know, responsible administrative size and industry partners who want to help sponsor students through this is going to make it more affordable for the students.
SHADLE: So, you made me wonder: So, what are the food offerings going to be, do you know?
LASNOSKI: Yeah, I do. I do. So, breakfast and lunch. Okay, you're not going to run out of food. We're going to provide a bunch of staples. You can make them, make a breakfast after Mass, make a lunch for yourself, and either take it with you or come back for lunch if it's a class day. Dinner is plated and served. That is a catered meal, okay? And so that will be a nice community event every evening.
SHADLE: Alright. No, I just had to ask.
LASNOSKI: Of course, right? What are they going to do? How are these guys going to survive?
SHADLE: Well, and that gets me thinking about how the food at college can just be part of the experience or the tradition. So, I remember at my college they had, like, chicken tenders every Friday or something like that. So, you know . . . But maybe you lose an aspect of that when there's so many different options, like you said, so, like at the typical university today. So, let's talk a little bit more about . . . You said that part of how the education is going to be affordable is building partnerships, So, what kind of partnerships with the local business community are you working on or are you hoping for?
LASNOSKI: Mm hmm. So, there's a few types. The most important ones are really related to who wants to be a visionary to help really drive and push this college becoming everything God wants it to be. And so, you know, those are going to be more like your bigger companies who say, “You know what, I see this as so important for not only Illinois, but for the whole country, that I want to get in on the ground floor and really make a substantial commitment to making it go forward.” So, those are important for sure. But the more common type of partnership that we're going to need is really the partnership of folks who are employing these students, right? They're taking a chance on these guys to develop them, and to walk with them and accompany them. They're going to have to start paying them a good wage, but they might not quite be worth the good wage right away, because they're going to be pretty green. And so that partnership of folks trusting us to be developing these men of character that they're willing to take on in their jobs right away, that's huge, right? And you can't understate that that's actually the most important type of partnership we're developing.
Side parallel to that, another kind of partnership is where folks, again, they're companies, they're local, they're regional, they love this mission and they want to help us by providing materials, right, or by staffing one of our trades modules, for example, right? We're working with a number of companies to do just that right now. We're finishing up our shops, and I've had a lot of local partners and regional partners who are helping to outfit those shops with the tools we need.
SHADLE: Cool.
LASNOSKI: Yeah. And then the third level of partnership is going to be that sort of direct or indirect student tuition sponsorship. So, a student comes to work for them and they say, “You know what? I like this guy. I want to sponsor him through the next two years,” right? And so, they provide some level of sponsorship, maybe it's 10,000 a year, maybe it's 15, maybe it's 5, right? Whatever it is, they provide a level of sponsorship for his tuition to make it even more affordable for him to do. And I think those are going to be incredibly important for us as we look for sustainable operating expenses.
SHADLE: So, a few weeks ago, the National Catholic Reporter had an article about a high school in the Saint Louis area that had developed partnerships with some local trade unions. And I had just commented on that in the newsletter. Is that something you would explore, as well, because they have apprenticeship programs and things like that connected with the unions.
LASNOSKI: Yeah, I I'm very happy to get involved with making partnerships with the unions. One thing you have to respect about the unions is that they have their way of doing their apprenticeship trainings and . . .
SHADLE: Yeah. That's right, that's right. They have detailed curricula and things like that, yeah.
LASNOSKI: Exactly. And what we don't want to do is be duplicating what a union apprentice would be receiving. So, in fact, what we're trying to do here is ultimately, when it comes to a union approach, is really more like a pre-apprenticeship program for unions, right. So, the unions . . . we're doing the unions a favor because we are preparing young men who are going to be outstanding union members if that's the route they decide to go, right. They're going to have an introduction to a trade, they're going to know they want to be in it, they're going to be well-rounded men of character, and they're going to show up at the trade hall and just elevate that whole place. So, what we're actually hoping is that after our initial year where they get a slight introduction to the trades, our guys, if they end up joining a shop that's a union shop, they'll join the union, and they'll start getting that union apprenticeship and all of its training while they continue with our school.
SHADLE: Sounds good. So, speaking of unions . . . So, earlier we were talking about how, you know, a major focus is not just the economic benefits of learning a trade, but also integrating in a philosophy of work or a theology of work. But is learning about Catholic social teaching going to be part of the curriculum?
LASNOSKI: Oh yeah.
SHADLE: Including the important . . . the rights of workers and the rights of unions and all that.
LASNOSKI: Yeah, of course.
SHADLE: I mean, how does that fit in?
LASNOSKI: Oh boy, it's kind of going to be woven into our building arts courses. You know, we have that first year where we're introducing them to each of the . . . to seven different trades. Part of those, it's not just technical. There's also going to be reflection on the meaning of each of those trades and why they're important, from a sort of societal and theological standpoint. There are a number of really encyclicals we're going to focus on. We're going to focus big time on Laborem Exercens, right?
SHADLE: Yeah. That makes sense, that makes sense.
LASNOSKI: I mean, this is where JP 2 tells us, you know, what is work, the subjective element, the objective element, right, and ultimately gets into saying this outstanding, outlandish even, comment that work is the solution to the entire social problem, right? I mean, that's . . . When he goes into that. It's just amazing. And the priority . . . you know, he starts explaining the priority of labor over capital, and how do we understand that, right? So, Laborem Exercens is really important for us, but it can't be taken . . .
SHADLE: Can I pause for a second?
LASNOSKI: Yeah, go ahead.
SHADLE: So, readers, that's a 1981 encyclical by Pope John Paul II that maybe more than any other document of Catholic social teaching is really sort of a philosophy of work or a theology of work rather than kind of going through different . . . I mean it does address concrete issues that workers face, but the focus is really developing a philosophy of work like Kent was just saying. Okay, go ahead, I apologize.
LASNOSKI: No, that's great. I should have mentioned that, but we can't leave that aside from really the whole trajectory, right, that starts with Rerum Novarum, right. And you go back to that 1891 encyclical and you have to say, well, what was the Church thinking about how labor and capital could work together in this era, and did that happen well? Did it work? What were the faults of that approach? What were the strengths of that approach? And so, we track that, we'll track that through all the encyclicals, right, all the way up to where we get today. So, Caritas in Veritate has its own . . . I mean, they each have their own addition, right? And so, you get with Rerum Novarum, you get this initial piece of well, hey, socialism can't be the answer. But then what do we do about capitalism, right? And how do we negotiate the rights of labor and the importance of labor with capital, and how the Church has nuanced that over the years, ultimately getting up to where Benedict XVI adds . . . and I love his addition, where he really pushes down and says, look, if you don't have gratuitousness at the heart of your economic theory, it's all going to fall apart. And I think that is a huge addition and we really want to lean into that.
SHADLE: Also, I just had an essay in a volume come out that talks about this, among other things, but that Caritas in Veritate also starts to explore what should a business enterprise look like . . .
LASNOSKI: Yes.
SHADLE: . . . in terms of its internal dynamics, and your point about gratuitousness is right, you know, right. It's talking about that in the same place, that it can't just be built on economic, purely economic relationships, that business enterprises serve . . . you know, they do serve the motive of making profit and, you know, supporting people economically, but they build community, they serve the common good, and so forth, so hopefully that gets integrated too, I think.
LASNOSKI: Oh, it will for sure, and the other thing I want to bring into there is the Economy of Communion, right, through the Focolare movement, and also distributism. I think, you know, these models need to be talked about, and much more. And so, really where this is in the curriculum aside from those initial building arts courses is going to be hit in our ethics and Catholic social teaching course right at the end, kind of the final capstone theological course that the students take.
SHADLE: But it does sound like . . . I guess you could call it a spirituality of work is woven through the whole process, so it's not as if, you know, at the very end you're saying, “Oh yeah, and then there's some, there's a Catholic perspective on all this.”
LASNOSKI: Right. And that would be the kind of window dressing or sort of decoration approach that I think we really want to avoid at this curriculum, right? It's, you know, if our Christian ethic, our Christian social ethics, if that's just sort of something we decorate our lives with, we're going to run into problems. It has to be the real foundational principle for how we're going to go about this on a daily basis. You know, a lot of these guys are going to end up owning businesses, right?
SHADLE: Right, right, right.
LASNOSKI: They're going to end up founding their own plumbing business or electrical or whatever it is, and they're going to have to know these principles at a sort of intuitive level. And you don't get that if you just study one course on it.
SHADLE: So, a stray question that I thought of earlier, and I should have asked earlier. So, we mentioned that the college is going to have two tracks, so one is just to learn a trade. Are they going to get like a certificate or something? And then the other is an actual two year associates degree. Are you going to . . . How are you going to deal with . . . Are students going to transfer to four-year institutions or is it mainly just going to be focused on a two-year degree that they then use somewhere?
LASNOSKI: So, what . . . You know, one thing to keep in mind is that the . . . Yeah, the web site has some information about a non-degree San Damiano House of Studies and then it has information about the credit-bearing associate’s program, right. Everything on the web site at this moment is sort of in the experimental, like we're teasing it out, we're thinking it out, phase. We're getting it approved by the State of Illinois for operation. And so, it's not finalized until it really comes out in the catalog, right. And the catalog is something we have a draft of, so I think really what I want to say about the associate degree program that really every student ought to be able to enroll in, if they'd like to, is that yes, we are going to have some options for bachelor degree completion. And at the moment, I'm talking with Thomas More College of Liberal Arts about articulation agreements for our students to enter in as juniors over at their school. Now, nothing's been completed, but we are in conversation. I've also had some beginnings of conversations with Catholic University of America about entrepreneurial certificates or pathways toward completing a degree in business at the bachelor's level. So those are going to be an option that's more on that business side and an option that's more on the liberal arts side in the Great Books tradition.
SHADLE: Interesting. Alright. So, we're getting close to the end of our time. So, I have a question, maybe a difficult one. So, what are the biggest challenges that you're facing or that you think you will face in getting this place up and running and thriving? Or in other words, you know, what keeps you up at night?
LASNOSKI: Oh man, I think honestly the biggest challenge is just getting out of God's way, and maybe that's a cheap answer, and so I won't just stay with that, but it really is. To be fair, the biggest challenge is just making sure that I'm trusting God enough and really realizing that this is His mission. This is something God the Father wants to put in place, and I need to just focus on handing it all over to Him, every day, every moment, and knowing that if He wants it to flourish according to His good will, it absolutely shall flourish. So doing that is a challenge. It's hard, but I’ve got to do it.
Now, when you get down to brass tacks, what concrete elements do I see as challenges? Well, I mean, the same thing as every college has, right: the challenge of designing a curriculum, the challenge of getting the right people, human resources, the challenge of getting state approval, the challenge of raising enough money, you know. And since I have done all of those things except raising money before, that one is the one that keeps me up at night in the sense that I have to give the most brain energy toward it and heart energy toward it, because I've had to learn the most, and do the most new discovery, and make mistakes, and, you know, not know how to ask people for gifts, and learn how to make connections, and go through all of that. So, for me personally, yeah, the fundraising side is really the biggest challenge just because I haven't done it before. But I've just been really, I guess, not surprised, but so happy with the providence of God. You know, it's just if you put good things in front of people and invite them into it, it's almost like, I mean, you're just giving them an opportunity to discern whether or not they want to be a part of God's vocation in this particular way, right? It's like, it's a wonderful thing to be in the fundraising world, actually.
SHADLE: That's a good point, and I . . . but I was also thinking, yeah, as a moral theologian and professor to then step into that role of college president, where a huge part of it is fundraising and networking, that must be pretty intimidating. But also, you mentioned, you know, the challenge of finding the right people. And that really struck a chord with me. It's like, yeah, you know, it's not as if you've just got like an opening and you need to fill it. You're . . . You’ve got to hire everyone all at once.
LASNOSKI: Yeah.
SHADLE: And, you know, finding the people . . . You know, because it's really them that's going to bring this to life, you know, you're . . . You know, you've got the vision, but it's really them that's going to make it work. And so, finding the right people for that is a big task. But it sounds like you're making progress on that front.
LASNOSKI: Yes, I have a number of people that I would . . . that are on my dream team, if I can convince them to come over here and be a part of this project. But there's also people that I meet, you know, out of nowhere and it's . . . and I just say, wow, I love what you're doing. Why don't we collaborate? Why don't we come and work together on this project? And so, it's just God provides people, you know, that are in this space of having been really well-educated and well-rounded people, but then they have this passion for giving that, handing that tradition on to the next generation, whether it's on the intellectual side, or it's on the trade side, or it's on the spiritual side, or it's all three of those, you know.
SHADLE: Alright. And you kind of gave us a clue on this already, but my last question is, you know, stepping into this role with a lot of responsibilities that come with it, how do you prepare yourself for that spiritually? You know, day-to-day, on a day-to-day basis.
LASNOSKI: Oh yeah, day-to-day, so honestly, I need . . . I make a resolution to spend a certain amount of time every day in front of the Lord praying for the college, you know, and so, if I don't do that, I have failed for that day. Even if I manage to secure, you know, a new friend of the college or something like that, if I haven't spent that time just in front of Jesus handing it over to Him for the day, then that's a problem. Another thing spiritually is that we, you know, we wrote up a college prayer, right? And one of the things I ask people to do before talking about money is just ask them to partner with us in prayer. So, we have prayer cards that we hand out, and we talk to people about the mission and invite them into a ministry of prayer with us, to pray for it. And you know, what else do you do spiritually? I mean, yeah, you go to confession more, you go to Mass more frequently with your family. And I think there’s been a big part of it that's like we've had to see this in our family, this move to Illinois, back to Illinois, as kind of a response to God's call for our whole family as a mission, not just to found a school, but really, to found a whole community here. We really want to get other Catholic families excited about being in this place and developing whatever it is God wants to do right here, on and around this campus. You know, we just bought a house here. We're remodeling it. It's like, literally the closest house to the campus.
SHADLE: Nice.
LASNOSKI: And so, yeah, we're all in as a family on this mission. And that's been a big part of the spiritual preparation because, I mean, we lived in Wyoming. And it's beautiful out there, and now it's beautiful here on this campus, as well. But it's different, and it . . . and we, if we didn't have a sense of purpose, I think it would have been a lot harder to make this move.
SHADLE: And actually, now that you mention it, I don't think I ever said where the college is. It's in Springfield, Illinois, right?
LASNOSKI: That's right.
SHADLE: So, yeah, Illinois, one of those weird states where Springfield is the capital, but then there's Chicago, which is much, much larger. But so . . . I'm glad you brought up your family because I . . . you know, we didn't, I didn't mention them when I introduced you. So, who's your family?
LASNOSKI: Okay, so . . . Well, I'm married to Caitlin Lasnoski, and she is obviously my better half and smarter half, and we've got ten wonderful children.
SHADLE: Wow.
LASNOSKI: Our oldest is 18. He just . . . is enjoying his first year at the Air Force Academy. God bless him. He's flourishing there. And the rest of them are being, you know, homeschooled here in Springfield and just developing good friendships and trying to learn how to love each other better every day, you know.
SHADLE: And I . . . but I appreciate that you brought up that this is a venture for the whole family, right, that, you know, everyone's in it together, you know, on this venture, moving to a new place and starting this initiative. So, I'm glad you brought that up. Alright. So, thank you so much, Kent. So, what you're working on at the college is really exciting. I wish you God's blessings on everything you're doing and hopefully . . . . When do you . . . Do you have an idea when you anticipate the college opening its doors, or is it too soon to say?
LASNOSKI: You know, in . . . We will be doing something in the fall of 2025, and really what we do in the fall of 2025 is going to be dependent on what path we take to get our courses accredited. And so, it's going to depend on whether or not that happens through state operating authority or if we are working through a university that is far distant and has no physical presence in Illinois, and so we're working through them, but we will be doing something in the fall of 2025, starting up, opening up with students. It's just going to be a question of how and what exactly our credits . . . where our credits are coming from.
SHADLE: Okay, great. Okay. That's really interesting. Okay. So, like I said, God's blessings on that. We'll be watching and keeping in touch. So, thank you very much, Ken.
LASNOSKI: Awesome, Matt. Thank you. It's been an honor and privilege to hang out with you today.
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