Season 2 of the Window Light podcast begins with an interview with Jordan Denari Duffner, a theologian, speaker, and scholar focusing on interreligious dialogue between Catholics and Muslims. She is the author of Finding Jesus Among Muslims: How Loving Islam Makes Me a Better Catholic and Islamophobia: What Christians Should Know and Do About Anti-Muslim Discrimination. Jordan and I talked about her work, Pope Francis’s dialogue with Muslims, how Catholic parishes can promote dialogue with Muslims in their community, and how to raise children rooted in the Catholic tradition but open to religious pluralism.
The Window Light Podcast is a feature of Window Light, the newsletter for expert analysis on the fields of Catholic theology and ministry, explorations of historical theology, commentary on current events, and theological and spiritual reflections. The podcast features interviews with scholars and practitioners in the fields of theology and ministry. Be sure to subscribe to the Window Light newsletter for regular posts and other features!
Transcript
MATTHEW SHADLE: Hello, this is Matthew Shadle and I am with a very special guest. I'm with Jordan Denari Duffner, who is a theologian, author, and speaker, and expert in interreligious dialogue between Christians and Muslims. She is a member of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops’ National Catholic-Muslim Dialogue, and also an associate of the Bridge initiative. And she's the author of Finding Jesus Among Muslims: How Loving Islam Makes Me a Better Catholic and Islamophobia: What Christians Should Know and Do About Anti-Muslim Discrimination. So, thank you so much for joining me, Jordan. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
JORDAN DENARI DUFFNER: Thanks for having me, Matt. I'm glad to talk to you.
SHADLE: All right. So, let's just start off. So, I kind of introduced your bio there, but can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
DUFFNER: Sure. About a year ago, I got my PhD in theology and religious studies from Georgetown University, and I'm still here in the Washington, DC area. And what was really great about Georgetown's PhD program in theology is that we were actually required to study two religious traditions. In my case, I did Christianity and Islam. And so that was a really wonderful experience because you're studying two traditions at the same time, looking at similarities, looking at differences, looking at the relations over time, and theology, things like that. But some of my other academic interests are in the church post-Vatican II, and especially Catholic approaches to thinking about religious diversity . . .
SHADLE: Sure.
DUFFNER: . . . .both going into Vatican II and in its wake. And also just the history of the category of “religion” is something that's been really fascinating to me . . .
SHADLE: Oh, yeah.
DUFFNER: . . . and been something I've applied in in a lot of my work. One of my more recent projects, my dissertation, was looking at the Prophet Muhammad, who has often been a figure that's been contentious between Christians and Muslims or seen as this divider. But what I tried to do in my dissertation was look at his character traits and, in light, actually, of Saint Paul's list of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So, I was looking for these positive qualities, evidence of the Spirit, in the ways that Muslims have envisioned the Prophet Muhammad over time. As you mentioned from the intro, a lot of my work is also focused on Islamophobia. So, before I went back for my PhD, I was working full time at the Bridge Initiative. I'm still affiliated there. And our goal there was to research and to raise awareness about the problem of anti-Muslim discrimination. And so, some of the work that I was doing there was specifically looking at issues in the Catholic community. I did a study on how Islam was portrayed in Catholic media and books, and then also how that translated into Catholic public opinion on Islam. I've been in DC for . . . since undergrad. I went to Georgetown also for undergrad, but I'm originally from the Midwest. I'm from Indianapolis and grew up going to Catholic and Jesuit schools, so I've been very immersed in Ignatian, Jesuit education for a long time, and now I live here with my son . . . my husband and my son, and my soon to be little girl who's on the way. So, that’s a little about me.
SHADLE: Yeah, I meant to mention that at the beginning. So yeah, so you said about two weeks from now, or maybe less at this point.
DUFFNER: Yeah, we'll see. I feel like she could come any day, so we'll see.
SHADLE: I'm really . . . I'm really appreciative of you taking the time to do this when you've got that to think about and prepare for. So, thank you.
DUFFNER: Happy to.
SHADLE: So, how did you first decide that Christian-Muslim dialogue was something you wanted to study and practice?
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
So, you mentioned at Georgetown you were asked to study two religious traditions, but I know you're interested in that was dated way, way before that. That was just something that attracted you to that program. So, how did it all get started?
DUFFNER: Exactly. Yeah, I don't know if there was a single moment oof decision, but I definitely feel this work in Muslim-Christian relations to be a vocation or something I was called to. And this really goes back to high school days. I was still quite young when 9/11 happened. I was in fifth grade, and so, as a child and a young person, Islam was in the media in an ever-present but negative way. But at the same time, I was really interested in it as a religious tradition and also kind of going on my own spiritual journey, not really sure if I wanted to remain Catholic, but I was interested in other faith traditions, too. And sort of in the midst of all of this, there was one afternoon . . . You know, I'm still living in my parents’ house as a high schooler. And this is before the days of social media. And a family friend of ours sent a chain e-mail message through to like our family e-mail account or something like that. And this woman was a parishioner at our Catholic parish and someone that we knew quite well. And it was an anti-Muslim chain e-mail message just spewing some stereotypes about Muslims, basically collectively blaming Muslims for the terrorism that we were seeing on TV and things like that. And I had seen through the, you know, the forwarding history that this e-mail had circulated through a ton of other people in our parish before it had reached us, and it really struck me in a couple ways. One, because I knew that the portrayal of Islam in this e-mail was not correct. It was not accurate. It didn't look like the Islam that I had been learning about from friends that I had met who are Muslim even . . . and at my Jesuit high school there were some Muslim students. But also, the reason why it troubled me so much, too, is because I knew that the Catholics who were circulating this message were kind, and well-intentioned, and faithful people. And yet they didn't see the disconnect between our faith tradition and what it teaches, and then some of the hate that they were circulating in the community. And so ever since then, I have really been motivated to address that disconnect to help Catholics better understand Islam, to learn more about Islam myself, and to also help us to investigate our own faith tradition and see what values do we have inherent in Catholicism and Christianity that can allow us to have more positive relationships with people of other faiths.
SHADLE: Yeah, and that's actually something I really appreciated about your writing is that it is, you know, deeply scholarly, but it's also very much woven into your own personal experience and relationships. So, you mentioned the example of the chain letter . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADL: . . . and I think it might have been . . . This is in your first book . . . Maybe in that same chapter, you also told a heartbreaking story about . . . Well, you had written about how one of your close friends, I think in college, who was Muslim, you had written about your relationship with her . . .
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: . . . and then some . . . an acquaintance from earlier in your life had posted something on social media saying . . . “Oh, you know, Jordan's bestie Osama bin Laden.” You know?
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: And that, you know, I just felt that in my gut, you know, something like what you must have felt when you saw that, to see these two aspects of your life. There's, you know, something going terribly wrong there.
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: So, I really appreciate that about the way that you're approaching this, that you really demonstrate in your own life the kind of dialogue . . . and drawing on your own experience to give this perspective to others. Was there anything more you wanted to say about the story I mentioned? I know I brought it up, but . . .
DUFFNER: No, it's been a while, actually, since I thought about that case. And yeah, it was a gut punch because, again, it's like we say that we have these values of love and hospitality and welcome. And oftentimes I think as Christians we pride ourselves and say, “Oh yeah, we're so loving,” with the implication that other groups aren't. And then we completely, just, disregard that when it comes to groups that seem foreign to us or seem other to us, and it's just sometimes easier to feel like we're superior than to really engage with the difference, I think.
SHADLE: Yeah. So, we talked about how it all got started, but let's talk about what . . . about your current work. So, you mentioned to me that you're currently working on a project, a book project, on Pope Francis and interreligious dialogue with Islam.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So, first of all, I've got a couple of questions on this, but what inspired you to start on that current project?
DUFFNER: Yeah. And I'm glad to talk about it. I'm really excited about it. So, back in 2013, when we found out that Pope Benedict was going to be resigning, myself and others who were already interested in Catholic-Muslim relations were really hopeful for a pope that would prioritize interfaith dialogue, and especially with Muslims, because this was during a period when Muslims were really being scapegoated, not just in the US, but in other parts of the world, too. And so then when Francis was elected and he chose the name Francis, my ears perked up because I was aware of the story of Saint Francis of Assisi and his dialogue, or his encounter, with the Sultan in Egypt back in in 1219 and how that can be drawn on as a positive example of dialogue in history. And then ten days in, Francis is giving this speech, I think, to like the diplomatic corps or something like that. And he talks about how . . . basically, how dialogue with Islam is going to be . . . a dialogue with Muslims is going to be a priority for his papacy. He says something like, “We can't have a true relationship with God if we're ignoring other people. And that's why interreligious dialogue is so important. And I'm thinking particularly of dialogue with Muslims.” And so when he said that, I thought . . . You know, I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to be following this guy closely.” And this is really exciting because it also felt like a validation of the work that I was trying to do already, and so I'm like, “Okay, well, this is someone else in the Church who values this and thinks this is important.”
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: And so I just started following all the news about Francis and his encounters with Muslims really closely. And you know, he's visited so many Muslim majority countries. Even in Italy, he's made a point to engage with Muslims there and undertaking some really major initiatives with Muslims, which we can always talk about. But I just think there's so many lessons there for Catholics, and for all people, about what interreligious dialogue and collaboration can look like. And I just didn't . . . I really don't want his legacy on this to get lost. I think, you know, when you ask people why is Francis so important, like, what are going to be the big aspects of his legacy, I don't know if a lot of people would say dialogue with Muslims, but I want them to, because I think it has been really important. And another reason that I want to do this book is because I want to draw attention to the Muslim side of things and how they have actively been engaging with Francis, because . . . I actually just had an interview for the book with this man, Judge Mohamed Abdelsalam, who's basically the right hand . . . He was very involved in the creation of the Human Fraternity document . . .
SHADLE: Oh, wow.
DUFFNER: . . . that Pope Francis signed with the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar. Yeah. And this, he, . . . Judge Abdelsalam actually wrote a book chronicling his experience of walking with them through the process of doing the document on human fraternity, and his own relationship with Francis, and things like that. And the thing that I was really struck by in his book and an interview with him is the way that it was actually the Muslim . . . his Muslim friends and counterparts that initiated a lot of this connection between Francis and the Grand Imam. So, it was the Grand Imam who, after Francis was elected, said let's reach out to him proactively and send a message of congratulations. And then eventually the two of them meet, develop a friendship, and then Judge Abdelsalam, he was really the one who thought, “Well, how can we harness this relationship, and what is something that these two men can do together for the world?” Because obviously their friendship itself is hugely important. But what is a way that they can collaborate? And Francis was all in on the idea, but it originally came from the Muslims. And so I think also pointing out the initiative that Muslims are taking for . . . in this relationship is also really important.
SHADLE: Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. And it would be also . . . It would also be fascinating to learn more about how these initiatives are received in the Muslim community, as well.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: Because obviously, as Catholics, we hear about how our community is receiving it, but it would be interesting to see the other perspective.
DUFFNER: Yeah. And that's going to be a big part of it, too. I have a lot of interviews planned, and I'm actually hoping to do some kind of survey of both Catholics and Muslims also, to just see how they've received what the pope has been up to, so . . .
SHADLE: Well, and more recently, Pope Francis has been on . . . been in Indonesia. And it sounds like the people there were very receptive to him and to his event with the imam there, as well. So that was kind of exciting to see.
DUFFNER: Yeah, it was, and I really appreciated your piece on it, too, your analysis on Window Light.
SHADLE: Oh, thank you.
DUFFNER: So, thanks for writing about it. I was glad to see that.
SHADLE: Well, yeah. And then just the funny little bit about the tunnel, the Tunnel of Friendship, was really . . . a big part of it is just sharing a parking lot. So . . .
DUFFNER: Yes, but that's it. And you were actually the first place that I read that detail. So, I was so glad that you included it because that's it, right? Like it's . . . We, you know . . . I think, so much of the reason why dialogue is so important is because we do still need to live together.
SHADLE: Uh huh.
DUFFNER: And it's really simple things like that that can end up being really meaningful. Like you said, sharing a parking lot, or something like that.
SHADLE: Yeah, well . . . And that actually reminds me, on a smaller scale, some of the examples in your first work of someone who's just willing to, you know, always willing to share some food or, you know, to welcome you in for tea, or whatever. It's the same kind of thing. Just these really practical things that really are the starting point for dialogue.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So, you already . . . I mean, you already in a way already brought this up, but what do you think is distinctive about Pope Francis's way of engaging with Islam? And maybe an interesting way to approach that would be in comparison with his predecessors, especially maybe the two immediate predecessors who did . . . you know, made some important moves in in this regard. But how is Francis different?
DUFFNER: Yeah, I think Francis is distinct in a couple of ways. I mean, I do think he is part of the . . . He's consonant with the trajectory that he, or, you know, the past popes that came before him, you know. I mean he . . .
SHADLE: Right.
DUFFNER: He has said, “I'm living out basically . . . I'm not trying to go beyond Vatican II, but I'm trying to, you know, put Vatican II into practice when it comes to this sort of stuff.”
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: I think with John Paul II . . . John Paul II made a lot of really important statements about Islam. He said a lot of really important things. One of the things I can think of is he, I think, was the first pope to talk about Muslims as our brothers and sisters in faith
SHADLE: Okay.
DUFFNER: Not our cousins, not our friends, but actually our siblings, which implies something theological. You know, Nostra Aetate, Lumen Gentium, and the Catechism acknowledge that Muslims also believe in the one God, despite the fact we do have differences in our beliefs about God. And so, you know, JP2 was driving that home and saying that in other ways. But then Francis, I think, really assumes that and then puts it into practice. I mean, he has no problem praying with Muslims. Benedict wasn't so comfortable doing that.
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: But Pope Francis, you know, he will ask Muslims to pray for him. He will, you know, stand reverently as Muslims are praying, and it doesn't seem like he's doing his own thing, but he's really sort of like settling into their prayer. There's even this really moving image of him when he visited the Central African Republic. He's in the mosque, and he talks about how . . . later he talked about how he just felt drawn to stand at the foot of a Muslim prayer mat and just stand there and pray for a little bit.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: So again, I think he's just . . . for him, it's a no brainer that our prayers are directed at the one God despite our theological differences. So, I think that's, I think, kind of distinctive and again something that I don't think Benedict . . . I don't think Benedict was willing to go there. He didn't feel quite as comfortable with that.
SHADLE: Okay.
DUFFNER: I also think Francis has been so vocal and really morally consistent when it comes to speaking up for Muslims’ rights or opposing bigotry and stereotypes and things like that.
SHADLE: Okay.
Now, I think this is . . . I don't think . . . I think if JP2 or Benedict were maybe, you know, pope when he was, they might have done similar things, as well, but Pope Francis has really tried to stand up for Muslim refugees in Europe and really welcome them during the Syrian refugee crisis. And I think just, in a really morally consistent way, doesn't just speak up for Christians who are being persecuted in different parts of the world, but has also spoken up for Muslims. And I think that's not lost on Muslims. I think they see that. You know, another thing I'll mention, too, is that . . . I can't remember which commentator or which collaborator of Francis said this. But Francis is even doing theology with Muslims. In Laudato Si’, in his encyclical on ecology, Francis, at the end is . . . near the end is making this point about having a sacramental imagination, like basically seeing God through the natural world, and his footnote for that point isn’t one of the many, many people in Catholic history he could bring up, but it's actually a Muslim mystic that he cites in footnotes for that and actually quotes in the footnote. And I believe, scholars believe, that that's the first time that a Muslim has ever been cited as an authority in an encyclical.
SHADLE: And then doesn't he cite Ahmed el-Tayeb in Fratelli Tutti, or am I making that up?
DUFFNER: Yeah. So, in Fratelli Tutti, he basically says at the beginning, “My friendship with this man encouraged me to do this, this encyclical.” And then at the end, part of Fratelli Tutti quotes the joint document that he wrote with the imam that was also, you know, worked on by other Muslims, as well. And so, yeah, I mean, Muslim theologizing and spirituality is now infused into these Catholic documents. And I don't think that's insignificant.
SHADLE: Well, that reminds me of . . . You mentioned in your first book that there's at least an argument that Francis of Assisi had incorporated elements of Islamic spirituality. There's a prayer that he wrote that really sounds like, I forget the name of it, but the names of God.
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: So, kind of a legacy there.
DUFFNER: Totally.
SHADLE: Okay, so that's a good lead in to the next question. So, Pope Francis seems to have developed a special relationship with Ahmed el-Tayeb, who's the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, the famous university in Egypt. So, what can you tell us about that relationship and why you think it's significant?
DUFFNER: Yeah, I . . . As I mentioned, I was able to read the book by, and then interview Judge Mohamed Abdelsalam, who knows both of these men very well. And I was just very struck by the really genuine friendship between the pope and the Grand Imam. They tell a story about how when the imam's sister died a few years ago, the first person to call him was Pope Francis.
SHADLE: Oh, wow.
DUFFNER: I mean, Pope Francis calls on this man to check on him and to have just a real authentic friendship with him.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: And they've met several times, and I think just that fact alone is really important for people to know because it would be easy if these men, these two men, just as figureheads, you know, well-respected international leaders, would show up on stage together and shake hands and sign a document that . . . Anyone can do that, right?
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: But these two men are actually friends, and they joke together, and some of the little anecdotes that Judge Abdelsalam gives in the book are really heartwarming. And, you know, Francis is kind of a jokester, and the imam is sort of, too. And so, it was just really sweet to hear those stories. And again, I think it's just a reminder for Catholics that there's different forms of dialogue. In some of the . . . I can't remember, I think it's the 1984 document, Vatican document, on dialogue, it talks about the four different types of dialogue, and the most important, but the most overlooked one I think, is the dialogue of life, which is just about, as Francis would say, sharing our joys and sorrows, just living alongside people in fraternity and in our ordinary day-to-day lives. Then there's the other kinds of dialogue, too: theological dialogue, dialogue of spiritual experience, where we maybe join in or observe one another's liturgies, and then the dialogue of social action, which is obviously something that's really important to Francis, as well. And again, I think for Francis and for the Grand Imam, that dialogue of social action is really important because they're translating their friendship into calling for and drawing attention to some of . . . drawing attention to some of the issues in the world, and then thinking about how can we, as people of faith, address them, and really seeing religious people as necessary and important actors to remedy some of our global issues. So, I think those are some of the reasons why that relationship is important. The other thing I'll just say, though, is, you know, Francis . . . Again, he's not only friends with this big figurehead, he's also friends with Judge Abdelsalam and his wife and kids. One of the things that he talks . . . that the judge talks about in the book is, Francis would call and check on him, like when his daughter was sick, he called to check on how his daughter was doing, like after her surgery or something, he called to see how she was doing. And so, I mean, Francis really walks the walk and he doesn't publicize this stuff, you know, so again, it's just a reminder to all of us of the importance of just being there for people and that dialogue across religious traditions can happen in really ordinary, human, loving ways, I think.
SHADLE: So, that actually reminds me . . . This point you're making about how, well, like you said, he's walking the walk, right, that there's these authentic friendships. It's not just two people on the stage. That reminds me . . . I guess you could say John Paul II broke similar ground in terms of the Jewish community . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: . . . in that he had close relationships with a number of Jewish leaders or Jewish figures. And that's a little different because that was rooted in his childhood in Poland, you know.
SHADLE: But then again, I wonder. That makes me wonder, what was Pope Francis's exposure to Muslims prior to being pope? And maybe you'll answer that in the book, too, I don't know.
DUFFNER: Yeah, I'll just say the little bit that I know right now, because that is an area that I need to investigate more, but I do know that when he went to Jerusalem back in 2014, he brought along with him a Muslim friend and imam from Argentina, someone he'd known from when he was archbishop. So again, I don't know how far back their friendship goes . . .
SHADLE: Uh huh.
DUFFNER: . . . but he brought Rabbi Skorka from Argentina. And then I believe the man's name is Omar Abboud, from Argentina, as well, and so the three of them went together, and I know that was something that was really important to Francis to do.
SHADLE: All right. So, let's change gears a little bit. So, your second book is on Islamophobia. And so that's been a major focus of your work, as well, your research and speaking. So, I just wanted to ask about one aspect of that book. You know, it covers a lot of bases, but one of the sections of the book goes through the history of Christian-Islamic relationships, and part of what you're doing there is trying to show how, within the Christian tradition, how this hatred towards or misunderstanding of Muslims grew in the Christian tradition.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So, as you were . . . So, the question I want to ask is, as you were researching that history, what was the most surprising thing you learned, whether a positive thing, a negative thing, or neutral? You know, what was just something surprising you discovered in your research?
DUFFNER: Yeah. I'll speak to the history part a little bit, and then I also want to speak to some of the more contemporary stuff, too, because I think that is, to me, what was in some ways the most surprising, in a negative way. But, you know, I think a lot of times . . . Well, I shouldn't speak for all Catholics, but I grew up with a very rosy view, going to Catholic parochial school, of what Catholic and Christian history was, particularly in Europe. And, you know, you kind of heard about the Crusades sometimes, but it was sort of glossed over or whitewashed. And so, I didn't have a full understanding growing up of some of the harm that Christians had committed towards Muslims and to Jews in Europe and in other places. And so in grad school and other venues, I learned about the Reconquista in Spain, for example, and how in the early 1600s, you know, after there was an initial push for Muslims to convert in parts of Spain that had been controlled by Catholic kingdoms that eventually, a lot of these Moriscos who had been . . . maybe some of them had officially converted to Catholicism, but weren't really seen as true Christians . . . eventually were expelled.
SHADLE: Right.
DUFFNER: And then also there were . . . This was something that was totally new to me as I was working on the book . . . There were some papal edicts that came out. And again, I'm forgetting what year, what century it was. But it's, I think, in the age of exploration, so to speak, where there was this papal edict issued, which basically gave, I think it was Portugal, permission to subdue and enslave non-Christian and Saracen peoples, in places that Europeans were trying to colonize or take over, and obviously those documents were seen as . . .They were . . . What's the word I'm looking for? They basically allowed Christians kind of guilt free to enslave and to colonize the New World and . . .
SHADLE: Yeah, kind of moral permission.
DUFFNER: Exactly. Thank you. But I had no idea that those documents actually mentioned Muslims, or the word that they were using for “Muslim” at the time, which was “Saracen.”
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: And so, there are just things like that or other documents that came out from popes or from councils which would mention Muslims and say, “Oh, you shouldn't . . . You know, Christian kingdoms should not allow the call to prayer or marriages to Muslims in your realm.”
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: Things like that. And so, I bring a lot of those things up because I think, especially since 9/11, Americans are really familiar, and Christians are really familiar, with some of the bad things, so to speak, that Muslims have done throughout history, but we oftentimes don't know our own history very well.
SHADLE: Right.
DUFFNER: And so, we end up comparing our worst . . . or our rose-colored picture of ourselves to Muslims’ worst episodes in their history. And I just think it's important that we are honest about everything that's happened and realize that we're not necessarily better than any other community. And we just have to be aware of both the harms that we've committed, but then also the good things that have happened in history. I mean, to go back to your parking lot example, the equivalent of Muslims and Christians collaborating to share a parking lot in the Middle Ages wouldn't have gotten written about, you know. And so, we don't have that history written down for us. Sometimes we have little examples or stories. And again, I think Saint Francis's encounter with the Sultan in Egypt is one of those, and that's maybe a conversation for another day. But you know, those are some of the things that I wanted to bring forth in the book. The other thing I'll say, just in terms of contemporary Christian Islamophobia, that really troubled and surprised me in my research was to discover that there is this Catholic wing of what some other scholars have called the Islamophobia network or the Islamophobia industry.
SHADLE: Okay.
DUFFNER: Because I . . . You know, there have been a lot of studies done in the early 2010s about why anti-Muslim sentiment was ramping up in the way it was and basically looking at this network of pseudo-scholars and activists and so-called think tanks and grassroots organizations that were really drumming up a lot of fear about Muslims.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: And then a lot of those reports, they would point out, rightly, some of the evangelical Christians or Protestant Christians that were involved in in this. Because . . . I can think of Christian Broadcasting Network or others like Pat Robertson and other Christians who were really fueling the Islamophobia that was growing at that time, but what I was learning through my research at the Bridge Initiative was that there was a whole Catholic wing to all of this.
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: There were Catholics involved in the broader national Islamophobia network. But then as I'm looking, you know, as I'm doing research on Catholic bookstores, and Catholic publishers and publications, and things like that, I'm realizing there's this whole crew of Catholics who are misrepresenting the Muslim tradition and misleading Catholics. And Catholics who want to learn are being misled because they're being fed information that is either partial or incorrect. And so that was really concerning to me and obviously something I wanted to shed light on in the book, too.
SHADLE: Yeah. And it's an international network, too.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: Because a large part of that is rooted in fears of the so-called Islamization of Europe, right?
DUFFNER: Yes.
SHADLE: And that's tied into Catholic far right tendencies in Europe. So . . . But yeah, it's interesting how that, in the post 9/11 world, extends to the United States, too. And like you said, also you know, just intertwined with non-Catholic groups, like you said, evangelical Christian, secular, and so forth.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So . . . Well, so speaking of networks, but a very different network . . . So, you have a somewhat new role with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops participating in the National Catholic-Muslim Dialogue. So, what's involved with that and what is it like?
DUFFNER: Yeah. So, in the wake of Vatican II, sixty years ago in the 1960s, there was this push to have Catholics be better connected with people of other faith traditions, and so different countries’ bishops’ conferences started to establish more formal dialogues between Catholics and Muslims and Jews and others. So, the USCCB has different dialogues with different religious communities. And originally the dialogues were regional, so there was one on the East Coast, one in the Midwest, one on the West Coast. But a few years ago they . . . They didn't dissolve them, but they basically combined them all into one national dialogue. And there are two goals with it. One, to do . . . Well, there are two goals, one just to build relationships and get to know one another and learn about each other's traditions, but then also to, ideally, produce resources that can be useful to both of our faith communities and help our faith communities to better understand one another. So, I was invited, appointed, to the dialogue last year. We unfortunately didn't meet in person last year. That's the main thing. We have one in person meeting a year, and then actually now we're doing, I think it's monthly or bimonthly Zoom meetings, as well—Zoom conversations. And because a lot of us are new, they've actually very intentionally expanded the dialogue recently to include more women and to include more younger women.
SHADLE: Oh!
So, I'm one of the lucky younger women that has been recently brought in because so many of these things, even stuff that Pope Francis is involved in, it's like a bunch of old dudes who are on stage and who are having these conversations, but fortunately both the Muslims and the Catholics have been bringing on some more women. And those of us that have joined are younger scholars, too.
SHADLE: Okay.
There's some folks who are more practitioners than scholars. But I would say the bulk of people in the dialogue are academics.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: And so we're doing different things, I mean, because we're sort of new. This is . . . We're in kind of a new wave of the dialogue. We're still trying to figure out who we all are together and get to know each other, which is important. We need to build, I think, those relationships and that trust before we can do a lot together, but one of the things that I'm working on for the USCCB right now is what we hope will be this pamphlet on Islamophobia that could be distributed in Catholic contexts like in parishes and things like that. So, you know, you go out in the little vestibule of your church and there's little pamphlets about different things, and the hope is that this would be something that can help Catholics learn more about what Muslims have been facing and then to think about how we can draw on our faith tradition to address it.
SHADLE: Yeah, that would be cool. So, yeah, that's kind of neat because I'm the USCCB’s . . . one of their representatives at the National Council of Churches.
DUFFNER: Oh, cool.
So, yeah . . . For the Faith and Order Convening Tables, which is the theological dialogue. So, we're under that same Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs umbrella together.
DUFFNER: Yes, yes, yes. I didn't know that. That's great.
SHADLE: So, welcome!
DUFFNER: Thank you.
SHADLE: Okay, so we've been talking about dialogue at a pretty high level. So, for us Catholics, the highest level, you know, the pope, and we were just talking about your dialogue at the national level, associated with the conference of Catholic bishops. But actually, in your writing, you actually put a lot more focus on dialogue with Muslims in their everyday lives. And earlier you mentioned the dialogue of life, I think you called it.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So, what are some things . . . Let's focus on the parish level. So, what are some things that Catholic parishes in the United States can do to engage in or foster dialogue with Muslims in their communities?
DUFFNER: Yeah. I mean, of course, I'm going start off by saying there's so many things you could do, but to give some specifics, I think first, it's really important to learn about Islam from Muslims because, as I mentioned, there are lots of . . . I mean, there are lots of really good resources out there by non-Muslims about Islam, and I've tried to provide some of those in my own writing, like my first book especially. And the goal is to be a resource for Catholics who are just starting to learn about Islam and to engage or think about dialogue. But I think if folks are interested in learning about Islam and meeting Muslims, inviting someone to their parish to talk about their faith tradition or an aspect of it can be a really great starting point. There are so many Muslim academics who do church talks at churches all the time, who are really interested in sharing things, but not just scholars; also people who are ordinary folks who practice the faith. And I can think . . . It might be fruitful sometimes to schedule those things around similar holidays or around a specific theme that might be interesting to Catholics and to Muslims or something like that. In the spring, for example, the holy month of Ramadan fell during the time of Lent, and so it would have . . .
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: It was a great time to focus on prayer, fasting, and almsgiving in both of the traditions. Local mosques are always eager to welcome people in for tours, for events, to come observe prayer, when they host Iftars, which is the meal that breaks the fast during Ramadan. Oftentimes you can find your local mosque hosting something like that. And also it's great for churches and parishes to host those sorts of events, as well.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
DUFFNER: Because again, then you're meeting people over a meal, It's kind of lower stakes, you know, than sitting around . . . You know, I'm not imagining people necessarily getting around and talking about theological topics. Now, as a theologian and a nerd, I find that really fun.
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: And I encourage people to do that. But you don't have to, you know. You can also work on different community service projects together, or other things. One of the really exciting things that's happening right now . . . and I'm not really involved in it, but I know of people who are . . . are joint efforts on the environment. So, actually after Laudato Si’ was released by Francis, Muslims . . . I think they've issued the document at this point. It's a document called Al-Mizan, which means “the balance,” and it's basically like a Muslim version of Laudato Si’.
SHADLE: Oh, wow.
DUFFNER: And so, there are so many . . . and actually the theme of integral ecology is going to be our focus at the National Catholic-Muslim Dialogue next year because, again, this is a really easy place for Catholics and Muslims to work together. So, you know, whether it's cleaning up a park in your neighborhood with the local mosque or something like that, I mean, the possibilities, I think, really are endless, and I think there are some things also that Catholics can do on our own that don't require us to take up Muslims’ time, because one of the things I think we want to avoid is going to Muslims like, “Please explain yourselves to us,”
SHADLE: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
DUFFNER: You know, that's not what we want to do. And so that's, again, that's where people like me should be helping out, because we don't need to put the extra burden on Muslims to explain themselves. People have been demanding this from Muslims for the last twenty years, since 9/11, you know, basically like, “Explain to . . . “ You know, people have effectively . . . The non-Muslims, Christians, have been saying, “Explain yourselves to us,” basically, and that's not Muslims’ job.
SHADLE: “Do our homework for us!”
DUFFNER: Yeah, that's not Muslims’ job. And so, there are great resources out there. And I think also we just have to really look inward and reflect on our own fears and feelings and potential for stereotypes. As you know, in my books, I talk about some of the ways that I have really been confronted with the fact that I still hold on to some stereotypes about Muslims at times that I've had to really unlearn and work through. And I think even those of us that have really good intentions can still sometimes fall into stereotypical thinking when we don't mean to. So, we have to look at those things in ourselves and then also if we see them in our Catholic communities, we have to call them out. Or, charitably, we have to let people know that, maybe that's not quite right or some other intervention, I guess.
SHADLE: Well, speaking of which, and this is just kind of a goofy example, but I used to teach at Marymount University . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: . . . across the river from you in Arlington, and they had a pretty significant Muslim student population. And then very early in my time there, there was a student I really liked who was Muslim, but he also confided in me that he also likes to drink.
DUFFNER: Uh huh.
SHADLE: And that was just like, “Oh yeah, there are lukewarm Muslims, just like there are lukewarm Christians,” or, you know . . .
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: . . . believers but they don't really follow all the rules or anything yet. Right? Cause I just had this stereotype that . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: . . . I guess, that they were strict and had these rules and things, but it's like, “I like to drink.”
DUFFNER: Yeah. And also I think with that, I was like . . . . I would say that just because someone drinks doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a close relationship with God. I mean, we Catholics can drink and we still love God. You know? So yeah, it's just about being exposed to more diversity and remembering that the diversity that exists in our community probably exists in their community, too.
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: Okay, so . . . Well, so . . . Oh, actually let me share another example of . . . Going back to parishes, right.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So, the parish I was attending when I lived in Virginia was . . . They hosted an event that was done in partnership . . . and now I don't remember, because I wasn't involved with organizing it at all, but it was either a local mosque or a local organization of mosques . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: . . . but they jointly put on this event that was focused on something you mentioned earlier, which was Francis's dialogue with the Sultan back in whatever crusade that was in the 13th century.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm. Either the fourth or fifth, I can't remember.
SHADLE: It must be the fourth, I think. So, I think there was a short documentary that we all watched together, and then we had, you know, table discussions, and I think maybe little snacks. Unfortunately, there was not a dinner. So, I perked up when you said that. But we did not have a dinner or a meal. So, something like that, too, you know, so a moment, a positive moment from the past that we could then learn about, because most people don't even know about that, and then discuss it. So, speaking of which, so the title . . . I love the title of your first book, Finding Jesus Among Muslims. And I think it's easy to read that at a personal level, but from the perspective of a parish, what do they have to gain, not just in terms of better relations with their neighbors, but in terms of deepening their own faith as a parish, through dialogue with Muslims? What . . . How can a parish deepen the faith of their community through this dialogue?
DUFFNER: Yeah, I like how you're framing that question, and I'm afraid I'm going to veer towards, too much towards answering for individuals, but I think this could be expanded out to the parish level, too. I mean, first of all, I think it's important for folks to recognize that dialogue is not necessarily about finding the least common denominator or compromising on our tradition, because I think that's what people are afraid of sometimes. They think that dialogue is just about watering everything down. But that's not what it is, it's about really learning about the other, seeing how God is working in the lives of another and the experiences of another, and then also sharing our experience with them. It's a reciprocal thing. And so, at least for me, when I have really been able to observe or even participate in Muslim prayer or hear Muslims talk about their relationship with God, I mean, that has been so powerful for me, and I think, again, makes me go back and reflect on, “Well, what does my relationship with God look like? What are the practices that I'm involved in? What are my prayer practices?” And, you know, I've definitely had moments where I've really felt put to shame by my Muslim friends who have been praying five times a day. And I'm like, “Wow, I could probably benefit from more prayer in my daily life,” and so I went and signed up for a prayer and daily life retreat at Georgetown that . . . you know, to better incorporate Jesuit prayer into my day.
SHADLE: Yeah, that . . . the praying five times a day is one that gets mentioned a lot. And you also have mentioned not just the praying five times a day, but that habit of just stopping whatever you're doing . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: . . . to pray, right? To kind of be mindful of God in the middle of whatever is going on, you know? So that's . . . And that could deepen Catholics’ faith.
DUFFNER: Yeah. And we have that in our tradition, and that's the other thing I was going to say is, when we see these things in Islam, we might have parallels in our own tradition, but we just don't really practice them anymore. Whether it's more intense fasting, whether it's the Liturgy of the Hours, or, you know, lots of other things. Another thing that I think has just been really helpful to me is, you know, dialogue . . . In dialogue, Muslims have asked me questions or questions have come up that I can't, I don't know how to answer. You know, when a Muslim asks you to explain the Trinity, and especially if they ask you in Arabic, which a friend of mine did in Jordan when I lived in Jordan, that was really tough, you know. I'm like, “How do I . . .” I'm like, “I can't . . .” You know, the answer that we always hear on Trinity Sunday, which is this is a truth and a mystery that we cannot explain, well, that's not really good enough for this setting. You know, that just looks like a cop out. But it's also asking ourselves, “Why do I believe these things? Why do I practice in this way? Why have I decided that this is where I'm going to make a home religiously?”
SHADLE: Uh huh.
DUFFNER: And for me, you know, at the end of the day I come back to Catholicism, in part because I'm convinced by the ideas and everything, but it's also because this is the community in which I grew up and I've made a home and it feels homey to me, you know? At the same time, I can appreciate Muslim theology and all of that, even as I choose to make my home and interpret the world through a Catholic point of view. So, those are some things. One thing is . . . You just were asking about what on the parish level could we do, in a sense . . . One thing I would love to hear more in Mass is for us to pray for people of other faith traditions, like in the prayers of the faithful and the petitions, because we so often pray for lots of different groups of people or classes of people, the sick, you know. But I think we never really bring up people who are different from us in terms of religion. And I know that in that setting that could maybe be a little bit jarring for people, but . . .
SHADLE: Well, and we have a bad history there, too.
DUFFNER: Yeah. Well, right. And it's not like I'm going to pray that you all become Christian and convert, you know.
SHADLE: Right.
DUFFNER: But just almost naming the existence of religious diversity, and that these are people who deserve our prayers and who are really, you know, . . . as the documents of Vatican II say, who are . . . You know, it's not the same way we are, but they're really striving to know God, and to serve God, and to recognize that that's a positive thing.
SHADLE: So, just to go back to something you mentioned a couple of minutes ago, that one of the fruits of interreligious dialogue is . . . maybe recovering is too strong . . . but recovering aspects of the Catholic tradition, and that was . . . What that reminds me of is that was also true of dialogue with Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.
Duffner: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: And, you know, through that dialogue, people were like, “Well, wait a second, meditation is not this foreign concept,” right? We have a tradition of meditation, as well. It's different but, you know, there's some commonalities, and maybe, in kind of an activist age, we have lost something of our own tradition that our dialogue with these religions can help us to rejuvenate.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
So, that's really fascinating to think in the same way in terms of prayer or . . . Actually, something you've written about is the concept of God's mercy.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: Right. As that's so central to Islam, and then we've seen an emphasis on that with Pope Francis and even Pope John Paul II, as well. So, right, as something that we can focus on as a fruit of dialogue with Islam, this idea of God's mercy, right? So, that's a really rich kind of way of thinking about one of the fruits of dialogue. Okay, so there's a ton of things we could talk about. There's so many things we haven't even touched on that we could talk about. But I want to close with a personal question. So, earlier we talked about how you have a new child on the way and you have a . . . you said 2 1/2 years old son.
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So, how do you hope to raise your children with a faith that values religious pluralism?
DUFFNER: Yeah. Thank you for this question. I'm really excited to talk about this. I mentioned before we got in this conversation that you brought up with me that you wanted to ask about this. And my husband goes, “Well, just tell them about all the books you read to Adam.” I said, “That's exactly what I was going to talk about!” Because for me, at least at this stage with really young kids, the way that I have been exposing him, my son, to religious diversity is through children's books. And there are so many fantastic ones. And I've actually been meaning on my own Substack to do a post about some of my favorites that I would recommend to other parents, whether they be Catholic or not. But we have a lot of children's books that feature Muslim or Sikh or Jewish or other characters, or who are written by people of these faith traditions, and it's been really fun because it's given my son a glimpse into the faith lives of others. And these aren't books that are like, “This is a list of the five pillars of Islam.” No, it's not that. It's like, here's a story about a little boy named Kamal who goes to the mosque. And these are all the things he loves at the mosque, and he sees at the mosque, and so . . .
SHADLE: Uh huh.
DUFFNER: And a lot of these books are actually written by Muslims for Muslims, in a sense; like, I mean obviously they're . . . anyone can read them . . .
SHADLE: Yeah, I know what you’re saying.
DUFFNER: . . . but I'm sure Muslim kids love . . . Muslim parents and kids love reading them. But it's also super informative and educational for non-Muslim parents and kids. And so, I mean, that's one of the things, too, that I love about children's books is they're educational tools for parents just as much as they are for kids.
SHADLE: Yeah.
DUFFNER: And so, you know, it's been really sweet, and I've been so moved by what my son has absorbed from some of these books. Because I actually was telling my son the other day about how I had gone to the Catholic-Muslim dialogue, and he definitely doesn't have a concept of what a Catholic and a Muslim are, obviously, because that's . . . I even was like, “Can I use these words with him? He's not going to know what they mean.”
SHADLE: Right.
DUFFNER: But I said, “Adam, I'm going to go to this meeting and there's going to be a lot of priests and a lot of imams there.” And he said, “Oh, the imam like from the book,” and I said, “Yes.” And he said . . . He asked something about, “Did they pray?” And I said, “Yes,” and I think he said something about the Quran or something like that.
SHADLE: Oh, wow.
DUFFNER: So, he's absorbing these little words, and you know, again, just the scholar and dork in me just is so excited that he's absorbing this stuff. I think that's a really great way for young kids to get exposed to religious diversity. And then also just, at some point, you know, taking him to other houses of worship and also . . . and I think this is crucial for . . . because your question is about how to raise him with a faith, a Catholic faith that also values difference, also exposing him to Catholic ideas about how we can live together with people, you know.
SHADLE: Right.
DUFFNER: And there's actually a really great retelling of the Good Samaritan story by a Jewish New Testament scholar, I'm sure you know of her work. Amy Jill Levine. And she and her . . . one of her other, I think she's a rabbi friend, write a lot of children's books where they apply their scholarship into the reinterpretation of some of these stories.
SHADLE: Okay.
And they do this great book . . . they have this great book called Who Is My Neighbor? And it's basically a retelling of the Good Samaritan story, but with colors. So, it's about a community of blue . . . like, blue creatures, and a community of yellow creatures. So, they take all of the, you know, Jews and Samaritans and all that out of it and make it something that kids can understand. And so, I'm just really grateful for resources like that from scholars who are trying to help young people and families to live out these values in their family life and in their communities.
SHADLE: So, we'll have to revisit this when they're teens and they're, you know, old enough to theologize for themselves, to see how that's all going. But the . . .
DUFFNER: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: So yeah, I just thought this was really fascinating because, you know, when friends and everything were having kids and things, sometimes they would say things like, “Well, we're just going to let them decide for themselves for religion,” and that was their approach to, religious pluralism.
DUFFNER: Right.
SHADLE: You know, good motivations, but then you're just going to end up with kids with no familiarity with not just other people’s religious traditions, but even their own. So, I think some of the things you were suggesting, like forming them in your tradition . . .
DUFFNER: Right.
SHADLE: . . . but also, like you said, emphasizing how your tradition views religious pluralism, but also telling them stories and eventually meeting people from other religious traditions, is a much more substantial way to think about it.
DUFFNER: Yeah. And I think . . . You know, we take my son to Mass, and he's starting to pick up on things, like a few weeks ago when we walked in, we went into the pew. I've never told him to genuflect, but he’s mimicking what other people are doing, and so he goes down on one knee and he genuflects going into the pew. And I was like, “Oh my goodness, he's learning all this by osmosis.” And I think in some ways, because he's going to have this rootedness in a tradition, he'll be better able to relate to people of another tradition because he knows what it's like to be in a space of reverence, to be in contact with the holy, and I think that's . . . I hope that's something that we can give him and foster in our kids as they get a little bit older.
SHADLE: Yeah, that's a great way to put it: That being rooted in a tradition helps to understand other people's traditions.
DUFFNER: Yeah.
SHADLE: Okay, so I think that's it. So, thank you very much, Jordan. This has been really fun. And like I said, I wish we could just keep talking about all kinds of different things, some things we didn't even mention, but thank you so much.
DUFFNER: Oh, it's been great. Thanks for having me.
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