Interview: Hosffman Ospino
Hispanic Youth and the Future of U.S. Hispanic Theology
This week the newsletter features an interview with Dr. Hosffman Ospino, the Chair of the Department of Religious Education and Pastoral Ministry at Boston College’s School of Theology and Ministry. We talked about a number of topics, beginning with his work as the primary investigator for the National Study of Catholic Organizations Serving Hispanic Youth and what Catholic organizations need to know about the growing Hispanic youth population. We also talked about the connections and boundaries between theology and sociological research, Dr. Ospino’s work on the theology of catechesis, and the future of Hispanic theology in the U.S.
You can listen to the interview by clicking on the audio file below. The interview is about the length of a typical podcast, and you should be able to listen on your computer or phone. A full transcript of the interview is also published below for your reading convenience, along with some links and notes not available in the audio. (The transcript may be cut off in your email, but you should be able to click where it says “View entire message” to see the rest of the transcript.)
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MATTHEW SHADLE: Hi, this is Matthew Shadle, and I’m here with Hosffman Ospino. We’re going to talk about his recent research on Hispanic Catholic youth, and also his other work on theology and catechesis. And I also just want to talk to him about what it’s like to be both a theologian and a sociologist. So, welcome, Hosffman.
HOSFFMAN OSPINO: Thank you very much, Matthew. Great to be with you in this conversation.
SHADLE: So, you recently wrapped up a national study of Catholic organizations serving Hispanic youth. What can you tell us about how the study was conducted and what you were hoping to accomplish with the research?
OSPINO: Sure. This is a study that we launched at Boston College a couple of years ago and the goal was to better understand how organizations in the Catholic world are working with young Latinos and Latinas in the country. Now, what . . . The main thrust of the study actually emerges in the conviction that, or at least the observation, that young Latino Catholics are transforming U.S. Catholicism, so when we look at the U.S. Catholic population, we have . . . we know that about 60 percent of Catholics under 18 self-identify as Hispanic. Even though many young Latinos are leaving the Catholic Church or stop practicing their faith, the presence is very strong. And there have been several movements and conversations nationwide about why we need to be focusing on Latinos, at various levels. So, when I entered this project, you know, I mean the . . . When you’re doing sociological work, or social science work, and at the same time theology, you can use data in many ways.
SHADLE: Right.
OSPINO: And there are people who want to, you know, who want to complain. We want to name the obvious and then complain. Yes, there are a lot of Latinos, but they are not being served, and we don’t know how to do ministry in our Catholic Church with the young Latino population. The Latino population is very complex, and on and on and on. And there are plenty of studies that actually do that kind of work. You know, I didn’t want to do one of those. I thought, “Okay, enough of complaining, you know?” So, what about if we were to look at a study in which, instead of looking at the half empty side, part of the glass, what about if we look at the half full?
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
OSPINO: Then, let’s go and inquire, who is actually doing really good work with the Latino community, especially young . . . youth and young adults. And that’s what we did. We identified twelve organizations nationwide that actually are doing great work in terms of ministry with Hispanic youth. So, we did some organizational analysis work with them. We looked at programming, we looked at some of the work that they print, some of their curriculum, and we interviewed people who are working in the organizations, some of the founders. We interviewed some of the young people who benefit from these programs. We also interviewed and engaged with benefactors and people who believe in the work that these organizations are doing. So, after about three years of those engagements, then the report, which is ministries with young Latino Catholics or Hispanic Catholics, actually emerged, and it was released in February 2023.
SHADLE: So, for those listening . . . So, many years ago, Hosffman did a study of Hispanic ministries across the United States. This was in 2014, I think, and that’s one of the ways I know him, because at the time, my wife was involved in Hispanic ministry here in Iowa.
OSPINO: Mm hmm.
SHADLE: And so, she was . . . I think she participated in that, and so the reason I bring that up is because this study seems a bit different in that it’s . . . You chose to make it more focused. Like you said, you picked a certain number of institutions, and there, you know . . . it’s a range of institutions rather than just doing a thorough survey of a specific type of institution. So, how did you pick which institutions to focus on?
OSPINO: Sure. As you well noted, Matthew, my earlier studies were actually more general, and maybe for your listeners, something that’s good to keep in mind is that, in some ways, what I have been doing over the last decade and a half or so, is part of what I call my research project, lifetime research project.
SHADLE: Right, yeah.
OSPINO: Which is, I want to map out, or help the Church in the United States of America to map out, how Hispanics are transforming Catholicism. We know that demographically, it’s already happening. We know that at the grassroots level, it’s already happening. We also know that the further south and west you go in the United States of America, it is already happening. So, we know a lot of stories. We know the changes. But what has not been done intentionally is actually tracking the different dynamics that are associated with the Hispanic presence in communities, so we can better serve this community and work with Latinos and Latinas at different times. So yes, I began with these broad studies of, you know . . . My first major study, which you referenced, looked at 4,300+ Catholic parishes nationwide with Hispanic ministries.
SHADLE: Oh, wow.
OSPINO: Then the next study actually focused on Catholic schools serving Hispanic families. And then from there, it begins to narrow down. Now that you have that base information, data, you have a sense of framework, then you can ask more specific questions. In 2022, I finished the study that looked at, specifically, Hispanic teachers and educators and leaders in Catholic schools in the United States of America. Many people don’t even know that there are about 14,000 Hispanic teachers and leaders working and serving in Catholic schools. So, we wanted to get a better sense of who they are, and how do we support them, and how do we journey with them.
So, this particular study on young Latino Catholics and the organizations that are serving them, actually emerges precisely out of that context. We have a framework, we know what’s happening, but we wanted to get a sense . . . And the best way for us to inquire as to the organizations, well, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel, you know, all you have to do is start with a couple of phone calls: “Hey, Matthew, who have you seen working well with Latino Catholics?” And some people will say, “I have no idea,” and other people are going to say, “You really have to pay attention to this Fr. Augustino Torres. You really have to pay attention to this priest now working there. You got to pay attention to this young woman or young person doing this kind of work.” So that’s how you begin, and it snowballs in many ways.
SHADLE: Yeah, I was going to say, that’s called the snowball method, isn’t it?
OSPINO: That’s right. So, it snowballs, and then eventually you get a good number of organizations. And hey, the Catholic world, as much as we want to think that it’s very large and that it’s very broad, frankly, it’s a tiny world. So, you end up hearing the same names all the time, like, “You got to speak to this person. You got to speak to that other person. Pay attention to this organization.” And that’s how we ended up with the twelve that eventually made this study.
SHADLE: So, quick . . . one last, quick question on the “how” and then we’ll get into the “what,” but . . . So, your team, how big was your team? Who was working with you on this?
***LAUGHTER***
OSPINO: I wish I could tell you that I had up to 50 people working day and night on this, you know.
***LAUGHTER***
But no. I mean, I do not have a full-time team. This is . . . As a theologian working in the context of universities and so on, no, we get to make this part of the day-to-day dynamics of what we do. So, my team is, you know . . . I serve as the principal investigator. You always need a principal investigator, someone setting up the question, setting up the project, the vision for the project, getting all the appropriate permissions, and so on. IRB, institutional review board, approvals, and so on. And then I have . . . for this particular study, I worked with six research assistants. Three of them are doctoral students and some of them are interested in Hispanic Catholicism, and the rest were graduate students, master’s students, in theology. So, I take advantage of the opportunity of being in a school that actually attracts high quality students. And these students, some of them are not that familiar with social science, which is one of the weaknesses of many theological formation programs. So, what I do is, I train them, and I look for the means to do that.
So, small thing, but I think it’s important to say . . . And Matthew, you, at the beginning, said, what does it mean to be a sociologist? I am not a sociologist. So that’s something. I am a practical theologian. Actually, my degree is in theology and education.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
OSPINO: So, those are the two worlds that I inhabit, but from the very beginning of my formation, I was very interested in the value and the potential of social science. And I have taken my courses and so on, on how to do this and how to do it well. But my biggest strength, I must say, is that I know some of the smartest people in the world who can do sociological stuff. And I always bring them as consultants. I work closely with the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, who have been incredible help for me in the past.
SHADLE: Right.
OSPINO: But I also work with some sociologist and social scientists at different . . . within the university and other parts of the country.
SHADLE: Yeah. So, going back to something you said. I was imagining for the students, it must be a really good experience, because it’s . . . This is not necessarily what they signed up for when they decided to go to graduate school, but here they are doing this, seeing this other side of research. Okay, so let’s get to what you found. So, I’m . . . So, you’ve done this study, but you’ve also . . . you did a book with Timothy Matovina on Hispanic youth. So, what do you think it’s most important to tell Catholic leaders, whether they’re pastoral leaders or educational leaders . . . What is it important to tell them about Hispanic youth?
OSPINO: Well, I think that the first thing that we all need to do as Roman Catholics is acknowledge the presence of young women and men, you know, and it is . . . I mean, it sounds very obvious, but the truth is that many young Hispanic Catholics, youth and young adults, remain invisible in the structures of our Church. They are treated as invisible in many of our parishes, and even within our own Catholic schools. So, that’s the first thing that you need to do, acknowledge their presence. And in acknowledging their presence, then, in a sense, it’s like opening Pandora’s jar or Pandora’s box, you know. Then you find yourself with this amazing world of experiences. A lot of people tend to enter the conversation about young Hispanics as a problem to be solved, and I think that’s the wrong approach. We should never be treating people, young people, as a problem to be solved, people that we need to get in line and so on, because it’s a losing proposal anyway. But I think that what we will have to do is recognize that there’s this complexity in the life of Latinos and Latinas in this country. I’ll give you a couple of examples.
SHADLE: Sure.
Ospino: One of them is, there is a temptation to treat most Hispanics as immigrants, people who are recently in the country, who don’t know the language, you know, don’t know the culture, and they are always struggling with poverty, low levels of education.
SHADLE: Right.
OSPINO: There’s . . . There are millions of Latinos who are actually like that, so that’s not . . . People are not imagining this, but that’s not the case with all Latinos, and much less when you are working with young Latinos and Latinas.
SHADLE: Right.
OSPINO: So, we know that 94 percent of Hispanics under the age of 18 are born and raised, who are born and raised in the United States of America.
SHADLE: Yeah, that’s right.
OSPINO: So, there is nothing more American than being Latino, you know. Just like—this is something I tell my students— there is nothing more American than eating tacos, which is the most popular food in the United States of America anyway. So, that’s one piece. When you, when we know that the majority, the vast majority, of Latinos are U.S. born, that they are English-speaking, that they know the culture, that they know the Latino culture, and they know the wider culture, then that really changes the conversation in terms of approaches to ministry and accompaniment that we may imagine in our communities.
The other thing to keep in mind is that we are, right now, entering a time in the history of not only Catholicism, but of the U.S. society, in which the second, third generations of Latinos are actually, are really fast . . . moving fast into accessing higher education, okay.
SHADLE: Mm hmm.
OSPINO: We know that about 25 percent of graduates from high schools in the United States of America right now are Hispanic, so colleges and universities are now trying to adjust to this population that, I mean, of course will benefit from whatever structures exist, but at the same time make demands: cultural demands, socioeconomic demands, religious demands, values demands. And I think that that’s what makes Catholicism exciting. So, my hope is that when we look at Latino Catholics who are young . . . And that’s the purpose of this study. These twelve organizations that we identified, that are succeeding in their outreach to Hispanic Catholics, these people actually understand this population and they are thriving because they connect with the Latino young women and men.
SHADLE: So, actually something you said early on struck me, and that was about just acknowledging presence. And that seems to be . . . So, I’ve been doing this survey of the Synod documents from around the world, and that seems to be a pretty universal phenomenon, in terms of young people around the world: this sense that they feel invisible.
OSPINO: Right.
SHADLE: So, there was one of the documents that said, from the perspective of young people, it feels like the Church is owned by older adults, and so they feel like it’s just not their Church. And so, I thought that was reflected in what you were saying, step one is just acknowledge their presence, right. Just acknowledge they’re there and that they are part of the community, and a lot just follows from that, so . . .
OSPINO: That’s right.
SHADLE: So, what . . . Building on that, and you touched on this a little bit, what are some of the challenges faced by those working with Catholic Hispanic youth?
OSPINO: Well, some of the challenges go back to the question of intercultural competencies.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: And also, there . . . I mean, basic ministerial competencies, but particularly intercultural. We know that Catholicism in the United States of America is profoundly an exciting, diverse experience. So, there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all. I mean, people working with Latinos, you may do that in English, you may do that in Spanish, you may do that in Portuguese, you may do that in Spanglish, you may do that in . . . I don’t know how many ways of doing this. There are young Latinos who are very poor and low . . . with low levels of education. And there are young Latinos who are super wealthy, highly educated. There are young Latinos who . . . Latinos who actually are on the fringes of Church life. And then there are Latinos who are super Catholics, and they go to everything, and they are highly involved, and so on.
So, I think that one of the biggest challenges that we have in the Catholic Church in this country is to pinpoint the best approaches to work with the Latino community, especially young Latinos, because, let’s face it, part of the American experience is homogenization, in many ways. We really invest in this idea of being American, or American Catholic. And we have our own standards. For some people, it’s everybody has to speak English. For others, it’s everybody has to go to Mass. For others, it’s you’ve got to defer to the clergy. For others, it’s you have to be critical of the clergy.
***LAUGHTER***
It depends on where you are, and so we get these kinds of preconceptions about what it means to be a Roman Catholic or to work with young people, and then we impose them upon a population that is profoundly diverse and complex. So that’s where, you know . . . when the rubber hits the road, that’s where people start having difficulties.
A few examples. Life Teen Ministry, which is a fascinating ministry, and it yields wonderful fruits for a lot of young Catholics. But it is really successful among middle- and upper-class Catholics.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: It just does very well . . . Now, try to bring . . . When pastoral leaders have tried to bring Life Teen Ministry into Latino communities, even when those communities are middle-, upper-class, it just doesn’t click. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t flourish as it does in other contexts. Catholic schools, I mean, they have worked super well for generations and generations of young Catholics in the United States of America, and yet we don’t seem to find a way to retain a large number, and attract a large number, of young Latinos and Latinas into these schools, and their families are not sold on the Catholic schools. A lot of Latinos don’t see those schools as theirs, and they don’t click with some of the school cultures that are in these institutions.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: So, those are the biggest, I think, the biggest challenges. And that has to do with, one, how do we keep honing the ministerial . . . basic ministerial skills, approaches to ministry that are welcoming, that are embracing, that actually present a living Christ, not just with one particular way of doing worship and understanding, but with this openness to learning from the Latino community, as well. And two, I think that we also need to keep in mind, that is, the intercultural competencies. You’ve got . . . I mean, a lot of people want to work with young people and ignore their parents, who are immigrants.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: And you can’t do that. You’ve got to learn some of the language. You’ve got to learn some of the culture. Food is important. Dancing is important. The music that you listen to, the concerns. I mean, I was in a parish not long ago, when there were these young Latinos who are third generation already, and when they were identifying what are the main issues they wanted to talk about, many of these young Latinos said, “We want to talk about immigration,” because that’s the reality of their grandparents, and it’s very close to them. And they really wanted to be involved in that. So, let’s not take anything for granted.
SHADLE: Yeah. So, I’m trying to figure out how to add in something here that wasn’t in our original list of questions, but what . . . This is just my impression, that one challenge, especially when it comes to faith formation, is, I guess for lack of a better term, there’s kind of a shock of pluralism, of just, in the United States, just exposed to so many different religions and perspectives. And so, how . . . and, I think, especially among immigrant families, they may not be used to that because in their home country, you just kind of absorb Catholicism, right? And I know that’s even changing in Latin America. But then in the United States, it’s like, “Wow.” So how do you address that challenge in terms of providing faith formation to young Hispanic Catholics?
OSPINO: There is no doubt that the United States of America is very particular, in terms of being a society that, in a very fascinating way, holds an immense pluralism.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: I mean, the way in which pluralism thrives and flourishes in this country, is just rather unique, and it has to do a lot with, not only the large traditions of embracing pluralism and difference, and also migrations and so on, but it also has to do with its legal system, and it has to do with its educational system.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: So, I think that’s fascinating. But, in the midst of that pluralism, I’ve always been fascinated how Christianity continues to thrive, in many varieties. You know, there are some Christianities that I . . . Sometimes, I look around . . . or ways of living Christianity that I wonder, “My gosh, Jesus would be shocked,” you know, at the way we are interpreting some forms of Christianity, or whatever passes as Christianity in our nation. And yet, it really gives . . . Christianity continues to thrive. Religion . . . It is a society that is not . . . It’s both hostile towards religion, and at the same time embraces religion in such an easy way, and it’s part of that American experiment.
So, I think that, going to your question, in that pluralism, then you find Latinos with a culture that is malleable. I mean, if there is something . . . I was born in South America, I was born in Colombia, and I have lived most of my life in the United States, and I’m one of those people who are ni de aquí, ni de allá, not from here, not from there.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: So I’m from both places. I keep my roots, but I’m very Americanized because this is where I live, work, where I’m raising my family. But I also keep close tabs with Latin America because my family still lives there, and I have a lot of friends, and I’m very interested in actually keeping conversations in Latin America. And something that I have observed is the Latin American cultures are not rigid cultures in the sense of, you know, if there’s pluralism, if there’s something that is different, rather than rejecting it . . . Which actually, I mean, if you want to caricaturize many strands of European culture, that’s what they did. They would reject anything that is different, anything that is not European or anything that is not part of certain elites and then will throw it away. They will discard it. Latin American cultures are, as I said, more malleable, and this is why the idea of mestizaje, actually, it’s easy to understand in Latin America because when the Spanish, for instance, and the Portuguese, and the French came into the continent, you know, what these cultures did, instead of rejecting them, actually they embrace them, and then it has become part of the Latino, Latin American culture. And we in the United States have a lot of that. This mestizaje allows us to literally negotiate, you know, negotiate and embrace as much as possible.
So, the way I see this reality is that Latinos and Latinas in general, but particularly young Latinos and Latinas, even though they may not articulate it in these categories as you and I are discussing right now, I think that there is a de facto understanding that, yes, to be American and Latino, Hispanic in the United States means that you embrace the American project to some extent with its values, with its pluralism, and sometimes that means having a love-hate affair with religion and the institutions. And at the same time, the people who might not agree with the institution on X or Y dynamics, actually when you go to their homes, they have altarcitos, and they practice popular religion, and they actually go to Mass, or they go to other services, or they just sign themselves on a regular basis, they get religious objects in their homes, and so on. So, I think that there is kind of a . . . this religious in-between that is part of the Hispanic experience, and many young Latinos and Latinas have inherited it. The challenge is, that needs to be cultivated and it needs to be organized, and it needs to be accompanied through faith formation, through youth ministry, through Catholic education, other forms of education, good homilies, good parish ministry. And that’s not happening all the time, and at some point, many of these young people are going to simply just walk away from whatever these religious values are, but I think that there’s a lot of potential. And again, if you have noticed by now, I tend to be more on the optimistic side of things.
***LAUGHTER***
SHADLE: Yeah. Well . . . And that’s an interesting point. So, the strategy is not to resist this malleability, or this embrace of pluralism, because that . . . Trying to resist and say, “No, you have to stay with the Catholic Church, that’s your heritage,” is just going to push people away. And so, like you were saying, just embrace that malleability. That’s how you’re going to reach people. That’s an interesting point.
OSPINO: If I can add just one thing. I believe it was the sociologist Robert Putnam who said something very interesting. When talking about Latinos, he said that throughout the history of migrations in the United States of America, especially since the early 19th century, many of the immigrants from Europe, you know, the Italians, the Portuguese, the Germans and Irish and others, they have come into this country and made a contribution, but ultimately, you know, ultimately the American project, whatever that is, in terms of its sociology, in terms of its culture and values and politics, has kind of absorbed all these communities and made them “American.” But what he noticed is that’s not happening, actually, with Latinos in the same way. Different circumstances, actually, but actually he points to the Southwest. The Southwest, when you are in Texas, New Mexico, Florida on the East Coast, when you’re looking at California, and so on, what happens is that you get immigrants, on the one hand, but you also have these long, long, long-standing communities that have been in the country for many generations.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: And what he’s observing is that, rather than whatever the American project is, or the way we want to define it, actually, instead of changing these groups and turning them into “Americans” in a kind of stereotypical or more mainstream way, it is these groups that are actually redesigning the American experience. So, it’s like living in an entirely different culture. And when I first heard that, actually, I was curious about it. And then, in a sense, it allowed me to understand, to know how . . . I mean, I live in Boston, and it’s the one city where I have lived since I migrated when I was a younger person, and it’s the only . . .
SHADLE: Oh, wow. Okay.
OSPINO: And when I traveled to California . . .
SHADLE: Yeah, I was going to say . . . Yeah, go to Miami . . .
OSPINO: It really feels like going to another country, just like it’s a different culture. A lot of similarities, but yes, significant differences.
SHADLE: Yeah. So, I see time’s flying by here. So, I want to make sure we get to more of the personal and vocational side of this.
OSPINO: Absolutely.
SHADLE: So, you said that you’re not a sociologist, so I’ll accept that, but how did you originally become interested in doing sociological research, or empirical research? And while you’re talking about that, who were some of your influences or mentors in that process?
OSPINO: Well, when I was a doctoral student, I was very close to one of my mentors, one of my advisers in the field of education, Dr. Mariela Páez. She is a researcher, she’s a professor at Boston College in the field of education, not religion at all, you know. But my degree is interdisciplinary, theology and education. So, in the many conversations that I had, I remember this young professor at the time being passionate about research and field work . . . but passionate. And then she told me, we will not be able to understand the realities that shape the lives of children if we don’t do research. And every academic, every teacher should be a consumer of research and a producer of research, if we really want to move things forward and always be up to date with the needs and responses and so on. And then in one conversation, she told me, “So how do you guys do it in the world of theology?”
***LAUGHTER***
And I said . . . And I actually laughed, because I told her, “Well, you know what? That’s not the type of research that we are trained for. I know that there are institutions that actually have incorporated these methods, like Participatory Action Research, qualitative, quantitative research, and so on, but not in the program that I was. And as a matter of fact, when we say I, as a theologian, I’m going to do some research, that means you go alone into a library . . . “
SHADLE: Read some books . . .
OSPINO: “Study books, and then you don’t talk to anybody, then, until you write your books or your essays. And it’s a very, very lonely enterprise.”
SHADLE: And we even . . . I mean, there’s even, at least historically, some . . . I don’t want to say hostility, but suspicion of quantitative research.
OSPINO: Suspicion, yes.
SHADLE: Because that’s not how you know the truth. You don’t know the truth by, you know, polling people.
OSPINO: That’s right.
SHADLE: It comes through revelation. And so yeah, that’s kind of built into the discipline of theology.
OSPINO: Well, so, she planted something in my head about that. And then I remember speaking with my academic adviser and my friends, and I said, “So, what about this? You know, what about if we were to run some surveys? What about if we were to run some of these things?” There wasn’t much interest, at least at the time when I was doing that. It has changed, I have to say. I teach in the same institution where I was doing, where I did my doctoral studies. And it’s a different ball game these days. Now there’s more openness and encouragement, as a matter of fact, to do social science work as part of our theological training. Because, yes, we see some of that value. But I remember going to different workshops, taking courses on quantitative, qualitative analysis. Quantitative analysis is way beyond my interests, and also my skills.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: I mean, it requires learning, I mean, of course, a lot of math, and mathematics, and statistics, and so on, and I was not trained with the basics from day one, you know. So, I came late into the field, but I actually respect the people who do it, and I surround myself with people who are experts on the quantitative field. But I do, actually, because of the humanities training, training in the humanities, I actually do well with the qualitative dimensions of research, and much of my research does that. And when I contribute to my essays, I’m always telling narratives. I’m always paying attention to the stories. and paying attention to those categories that emerge by looking at different texts or stories, doing this kind of humanities-like analysis. So that’s how it began, and I finished my studies in 2007, my doctoral studies, and by 2010, I was already put in my first national study, and it was venturous. I know that when I first did, some people who are trained in sociology frowned upon that, and they said . . .
SHADLE: Why is that?
OSPINO: Because I’m not a sociologist, “You are not a sociologist.”
SHADLE: Oh, okay.
OSPINO: And I said, “Well, I have some instincts. I have taken some courses, and so on. However, I want to work with you.” And many of them actually accepted to work with me. They mentored me, but they also made their contributions. And I’m very respectful of field boundaries. And that’s something that is important to know, because I don’t want the sociologists to come and interpret theologically, you know, what I was trained to do in my own field, but I actually do want their opinions. I want the sociologists’ opinion. And I want the opinion of the economist, and I want the opinion of the administrators, and so on. So, I think that this . . . We need to start looking at fields of knowledge not as monads, but as kind of this world with porous boundaries that are constantly informing one another, and yet they retain their own autonomy, which is very important. So, theologians should do theology, and the social scientists should be doing social science. But that doesn’t mean that we cannot learn from one another and be in contact. And there is something that I actually appreciate about this, about being interdisciplinary in my approach to research and my approach to writing, it’s that I’m not doing it alone. It’s actually a very dynamic . . . a very communal dynamic. You are consulting constantly. You are reading . . . You can take, you know, say ten pages of data. You sit down and . . . This is one of my favorite exercises, to sit down with my research team, with the doctoral students, the master’s students with whom I’m doing the work. We sit down, we turn my office or a classroom into a little lab, and we all read the same perspectives. And then I ask educators, or sociologists, or an economist, to read this, and then in listening to their reactions, that’s how I eventually end up writing some of the reports that I write.
SHADLE: Wow. So, focusing a bit more on your work. So, you’ve done these studies, but you’ve also done some writing that’s more purely theological. So, for example, on the role of the catechist. So, just tell us, in just a couple of minutes, you know, tell us the elevator speech about some of your work in that area.
***LAUGHTER***
OSPINO: Yes, Matthew, I am a religious educator at heart. You know, somebody once . . . I was giving a conference once, and then somebody asked me, “Dr. Ospino, how do you want to be introduced? Do you want us to talk about your titles and all the many books you’ve written, and all that stuff.” And I said, “You know, introduce me as a catechist. I’m honored to be introduced as a catechist.” And a catechist, in the actually original sense of the word, a catechist is someone who receives the tradition, makes the tradition part of his or her own, and then shares it with the community in a language and in categories that the community understands. And that’s why, in my theological training, I have really aimed at honing those particular skills. Yes. So, I regularly write about religious education, religious education in a broader way that involves catechesis in the context of parish life, that involves youth ministry, and it also involves the work in Catholic schools, Catholic education. More recently, I’ve been engaging in conversations about Catholic higher education, which is another interesting area of this world of religious education. And what I do is, I enter into this conversation. I mean, there’s so much that you can talk about this, and you need to enter with a particular lens. And there are two lenses that I use for my contributions to this field of religious education. On the one hand, I’m interested in the impact of culture in shaping the ways you transmit your faith, you share your faith, with one another.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: The importance of language, symbols. The importance of community networks. The importance of location, and so on. So, context is very important. So, I write looking at what it means, for instance, to pass on the faith, or build a religious education program, or run a Catholic school, in a culturally diverse context like the United States of America. So, looking at interculturalism or cultural dynamics is one of the lenses. The second lens that I bring into my writing on religious education in pastoral life is an ecclesiological context, or an ecclesiological lens. I’m very intrigued about how the Church becomes in the here and now of our experience. I, of course . . . With the Catholic tradition, I know that there are characteristics that identify the Church, the People of God, but I resist the idea that the Church is a given. I resist the idea that somebody gives me a little package called “the Church,” and that’s what I have to live, and so on. My understanding is that the Church . . . God keeps calling people throughout history, and then the Church becomes, the Church flourishes at different moments and in different ways. And that’s how I write. I like to see how the Church emerges in these different dynamics and expressions, and some of them are really fascinating. Some of them are complex. Some of them are awkward, but still, it’s the same body of women and men who are baptized, and in that process, they’re building communities. And that’s one of the areas that I’m intrigued about, and I write on, on a regular basis.
SHADLE: Yeah, that actually . . . I hate to keep bringing it up, but in the Asian Synod document, they . . . when they’re talking about synodality, they refer to it as a “natural and organic inclination.” So, it’s there, but it’s not there. It has to be nurtured, right? And so, you’re kind of saying, all of the characteristics of the Church are “natural and organic inclinations” that are there, but they need to be made present. And that takes shape in different ways based on culture, based on the choices that the people make, right? So, that’s pretty fascinating.
OSPINO: Yeah.
SHADLE: I also want to talk a little bit more professionally, and so I know this is a really long question, so bear with me. So, you’re quite involved in both ACHTUS, the Latino and Latina theological society, and also the CTSA, the Catholic Theological Society of America. So, a few weeks ago, in an interview with the National Catholic Reporter, the president of ACHTUS, Ramón Luzárraga, our mutual friend, noted that the number of Hispanic or Latinx theologians is growing. And you actually mentioned the increasing presence in higher education, so a reflection of that. And he says that’s reflected in the number of people attending ACHTUS gatherings. And so that’s good news. But he also noted that these young scholars are entering a precarious academic environment and a theological academy in which Hispanic theology remains, to an extent, on the margins. All right, so given all of that context, what do you see as the future of Hispanic or Latinx theology in the United States? And I know that’s a huge question, and I’m putting you on the spot.
***LAUGHTER***
But it is a really, a rapidly changing field, and a lot of challenges in the declining number of positions that are available, and things like that. So where do you see Hispanic theology going?
OSPINO: Well, ACHTUS, the Academy of Catholic Hispanic Theologians of the United States of America, has been a catalyst of conversations that allow us, as Latinos and Latinas, to get a sense of how people are discerning God’s presence in this country, as Latinos and as Latinas, and Roman Catholics. There is a lot of energy at the grassroots level, a lot of energy. There’s much energy in terms of apostolic movements in parishes, there’s many people in Catholic schools, as well, youth ministry organizations, and so on. And I think that there’s potential for more, anyway. The question is, how do we eventually find ways for people coming from those experiences of parish life and campus ministry, youth ministry, Catholic school, to consider the possibility of being called, the vocation to be a theologian. One of the biggest roadblocks that we have for that in the Catholic community in the United States of America is the educational pathway. We know that in order to be a theologian teaching in a Catholic seminary or a Catholic university, you need credentials. And one of those credentials is the golden Ph.D.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: Those doctoral degrees, that’s . . . you have to spend, what, ten years of graduate work, or seven years of graduate work, in order to get there, lose some of your hair, and some of us lose some of our minds, as well. And then get to that particular point. But the challenge that the Latino community has is that, first of all, more than half of Hispanics who go into higher education only go to two-year colleges, okay?
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: And then some of them just get stuck there. They never go beyond the two-year experience. The majority of them actually never finish. And then the number of those who are enter four-year colleges is very small. And eventually, so, the pool, every time is . . . I mean, in order to think about those who would consider the possibility of being theologians and so on, is tiny.
The other thing is that, just like it happens with every other generation of immigrants in this country, immigrants encourage their children to go for the professions that actually get some money, and that will make them famous, and so on.
SHADLE: Yeah.
OSPINO: So, I mean . . . I have not met, I mean, in all honesty, I haven’t met the first immigrant parent or grandparent encouraging their children to be theologians. I mean, it’s not that attractive.
***LAUGHTER***
They want the kids to be doctors and engineers and lawyers and politicians, perhaps, to be people who have access to some power, some improvement, financial and also political, in their lives. And theology doesn’t offer that, but that’s not new. I mean, other immigrants also went through that. I think that the key is going to be the children of those professionals. They are the ones who are going to go into the arts, and they are going to go into the humanities, and they are going to go there. But as you indicated, our colleague Ramón Luzárraga is right in his assessment that the field of the humanities, which is the field within which theology is, is struggling, is struggling in public institutions, in private institutions, Catholic institutions. And the truth is that many of these people, I mean, you really have to have the vocation and be able or willing to risk your future in many ways. And it’s a beautiful risk, because you have taken it, I have taken it, with different results in our lives, but we chose to do that. And even though there have been some painful moments, there have also been moments of grace and moments of joy. So, it’s not easy to sell theology to a young person these days, as a career, as a path, as a professional path. But I think that we need to keep motivating that . . . And, especially as the Hispanic population right now, 45 percent of all Catholics in this country are self-identified as . . . What is it, 45 percent of Catholics self-identify as Hispanic. Okay, that is a huge number. And even though my good friend Ramón is optimistic about the number of Latino Catholics that go to ACHTUS, or those of us who go to the Catholic Theological Society of America, CTSA, I am not as optimistic because the fact is, the truth is, that Latinos constitute barely, barely one or two percent of the entire population of Catholic theologians in the United States.
SHADLE: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point.
OSPINO: So, that’s a tiny number. So, we really need to keep increasing those numbers. So, I see the future with possibility, but there’s a lot of work to be done.
SHADLE: So, I know time is short here, but let’s close with just an open-ended question. So, Hosffman, who are some of the theologians, whether contemporary or historical, that you find most nourishing for your own work or for your personal reflection?
OSPINO: Wow, thank you for asking that particular question. There’s a lot of theologians that I find inspiring. I have always been inspired by Augustine. I like reading Augustine. His sermons. I find him fascinating. I like the Augustine who engaged in debates, trying to understand the culture, and so on. So, I guess he has been someone that I have read steadily over the years.
SHADLE: That’s such a great choice for someone who identifies most as a catechist.
OSPINO: That’s right, that’s right, yes. And much of my philosophical training was in the Neo-Thomistic world. So, I mean, I had no choice but to be influenced, and actually gladly influenced, by Aquinas. I have read my good share of Thomas Aquinas. But, I mean, I have been an avid reader of Patristics, of the Fathers of the Church, more . . . I did it earlier in my career more than I do today, but highly influenced by their pastoral approach to what it means to be a Christian, the conversations on grace, and so on. I really love them. But on the more contemporary world, my goodness. And the thing is, that many of those theologians that I read are my friends, and it’s just, it’s hard.
SHADLE: You don’t want to name this person, but leave out this person.
OSPINO: I mean, I feel if I say “Matthew Shadle,” then the rest of the people are going to be jealous about the work. Yeah, I mean, people who have influenced me, or bodies of people who have influenced me from contemporary theology . . . Definitely U.S. Latino, Latina theologians, like Roberto Goizueta, Ada María Isasi-Diaz, María Pilar Aquino, Orlando Espín, Virgilio Elizondo, those classics, you know. They still inform much of my work. But I’m also . . . I keep my tabs on theology being written by women from a feminist perspective, as well. Elizabeth Johnson is always at the top of my list, I’m highly influenced by her work. I have read almost every work that she’s written. But I also read works by Shawn Copeland and Nancy Pineda-Madrid, and a few others that are pioneering excellent conversations in that field. And from the field of catechetics, there is also a whole world of people, actually, both Catholic and non-Catholic. So, I’m very eclectic in my reading, and maybe that’s what a catechist needs to do, and a religious educator needs to do, and definitely a practical theologian.
SHADLE: Right. So, we’ll leave it at that. So, thank you very much, Hosffman. This has been very informative and fascinating. So, thank you for joining us.
OSPINO: Thank you for the invitation, Matthew, and best wishes in your work.